Wonging Questions

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Bojack1

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure but I think mdlbj is refering to either big player team play, or gorilla big player team play. Either way it does somewhat negate conventional wonging because you have spotters sitting at tables playing through everything waiting for an advantage. But it is still a form of wonging because the big player only jumps in on good counts and leaves when the advantage is gone. As well as the spotter in a big player situation should leave the table and find another one to count. With the gorilla big player the spotter is more of a signaller, and will stay at the table to convey to the gorilla what bets to make and when to leave the table. Where this differs from conventional wonging is no matter what the count there is either going to be small bets made or large bets made, but regardless they will always be made by the same people so there is very little variation of each team members bets.

It is true you will need a bigger bankroll to play this way effectively. The table minimum should be a fraction of what your unit is to allow the spotters to play through all the negative decks waiting for the big player call in. If your unit is only 10 dollars it wouldn't be wise to have all your spotters playing all negative or non advantage shoes at 10 dollar tables waiting for the big player to be called in. Where it really shows profits is when you play at a 10 or 15 dollar table with say, a 50 dollar unit. Even if the big players action stands out a bit at a lower minimum table it doesn't matter much if his bets always stay consistently large, which they will. It is a good way to play, but you need a substantial bankroll, and a good casino presence for the switching of tables. But if you keep your sessions short, and don't play over shifts, it shouldn't be a problem.
 
lvhcm

lvhcm

Banned
mdlbj said:
Negate:

1 To make ineffective or invalid; nullify.
2 To rule out; deny.

Does this help? Or do I need to dumb it down and use four letter descriptive additives lvhcm?
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Jerkoff,

Nice edit job on your original post.

Team play is pretty self explanatory, if one does not know what the advantage of team play is, then ask one of the pros on this board.
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Jerkoff,

I've made more money through team play than all the "pros on this board" combined, as well as your M.I.T. hero.

Proper bankroll is key to any session weather it is a solo trip or used in team play. 10, 20 or 30k is not a proper bankroll.

Sorry to be so short in the initial post, there are several people using this login to read and to post with.
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Jerkoff,

As usual, you don't have a fucking clue.
 
jetace

jetace

Well-Known Member
Sonny said:
But having several teammates playing individually at different tables is a form of team play (Arnold Snyder calls it an EMFH Team aka Every Man For Himself Team).
-Sonny-
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This type of team play sounds interesting, can you explain or toss in a link?
Thanks!
 
adt_33

adt_33

Active Member
lvhcm to Automatic Monkey, ironically:

"Oh that's right, you're an attention whore."

I've noticed a much darker tone in these forums lately. I viewed all of your your posts and it didn't take long to see that you're part of the problem here.

Are you CIPHER's intern?
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
Bojack- when you have spotters at tables is there any advantage to them playing some small spread (say, 1-4) that won't draw much attention or threaten the casino, but will prevent their play from being a loss?

Also, when spotters are hired by a team are they forbidden to spread, or are they allowed to do what they wish at their own peril? And what about index plays and insurance, are they supposed to use these, or just play like a typical gambler?
 
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Bojack1

Well-Known Member
Automatic Monkey said:
Bojack- when you have spotters at tables is there any advantage to them playing some small spread (say, 1-4) that won't draw much attention or threaten the casino, but will prevent their play from being a loss?

Also, when spotters are hired by a team are they forbidden to spread, or are they allowed to do what they wish at their own peril? And what about index plays and insurance, are they supposed to use these, or just play like a typical gambler?
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The only time one of our spotters will play a small spread is if the call in is busy at another table and can't get there. The reason for this is usually the spotter will leave the table or take a break when the the big player sits down. So the spotters are really never playing at enough advantage to spread bets. Insurance will not be a factor for a spotter, but some negative index plays will be, so by all means they use them. Also if the count gets too negative the spotter will look for a table that is about to shuffle and switch to that one. There's no need to sit at a table that offers no chance of a call in. We have signals to call a big player into a shoe, if that signal is not issued and a spotter is spreading their bets, than that is a direct violation of team policy and would be dealt with accordingly.

Of course one of the best way to use spotters is as back counters, that way there is nobody playing any negative shoes. Thats ideal but not always practical especially during busy times. A lot of times the spotters place at the table will be taken by the big player after the spotter signals him in because there are no other spots at the table. Although I don't find backcounting particularly hard, some people get uncomfortable doing it for an extended period of time. In that case table spotting is the way to go. It all depends on the team and the casino conditions.
 
N

Negrocan

Member
adt_33 said:
I've noticed a much darker tone in these forums lately.
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Probably because it makes some of us SICK to see the blind leading the blind around here. Only here to help. If that is dark to you then so be it. At least it makes you think.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
Negrocan said:
Probably because it makes some of us SICK to see the blind leading the blind around here. Only here to help. If that is dark to you then so be it. At least it makes you think.
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No one here denies the power of holecarding, and we have repeatedly posted the holecard strategy and related info. Beyond that IF you would like to moderate a holecard forum here, you are welcome. But calling novice and pro cardcounters "jerkoffs" is not appropriate. Top cheaters think that the puny 3-10% edge in frontloading makes you guys jerkoffs, as well. Its all relative. zg
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
zengrifter said:
No one here denies the power of holecarding, and we have repeatedly posted the holecard strategy and related info. Beyond that IF you would like to moderate a holecard forum here, you are welcome. But calling novice and pro cardcounters "jerkoffs" is not appropriate. Top cheaters think that the puny 3-10% edge in frontloading makes you guys jerkoffs, as well. Its all relative. zg
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I don't know man, I don't know too many skilled holecarders or other advanced AP's who share their talents in public fora.

Furthermore, the talented and successful AP's of all kinds never have a bad word to say about another player, but always an encouraging word. So I have my doubts that the offensive posters on this site are anything beyond phonies and scam artists. But what do I know?
 
B

bluewhale

Well-Known Member
Bojack1 said:
The only time one of our spotters will play a small spread is if the call in is busy at another table and can't get there. The reason for this is usually the spotter will leave the table or take a break when the the big player sits down. So the spotters are really never playing at enough advantage to spread bets. Insurance will not be a factor for a spotter, but some negative index plays will be, so by all means they use them. Also if the count gets too negative the spotter will look for a table that is about to shuffle and switch to that one. There's no need to sit at a table that offers no chance of a call in. We have signals to call a big player into a shoe, if that signal is not issued and a spotter is spreading their bets, than that is a direct violation of team policy and would be dealt with accordingly.

Of course one of the best way to use spotters is as back counters, that way there is nobody playing any negative shoes. Thats ideal but not always practical especially during busy times. A lot of times the spotters place at the table will be taken by the big player after the spotter signals him in because there are no other spots at the table. Although I don't find backcounting particularly hard, some people get uncomfortable doing it for an extended period of time. In that case table spotting is the way to go. It all depends on the team and the casino conditions.
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very interesting. i always thought of spotters as people who plopped themselves on a table flat betting and waiting to call in the BP. i didn't realize that they could be wonging around, and maybe doing a little of a spread.
btw, bojack, if you've been to any of the casinos in ontario, do you know any way to beat em, other than counting? some shuffle by hand, but i wouldn't be able to recognize a frontloading, shuffle tracking, cut card opportunity if it kicked me in the pants.
 
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RJT

Well-Known Member
Well i'm out on this one. That's one poster i'll be sure to ignore from now on ;)
Someone asked about the EMFH team strategy and i don't think that this has been expanded on yet. EMFH involves a group of counters pooling their bankrolls and playing off the one combined bankroll. Their is no need for them to play in the same city never mind casino, they don't have to play the same length of time or even contribute the same amount to the bankroll (although this does make things easier). Essentially what this allows each player to do is increase the unit the play with and this will effect every member's earning power while reducing varience as more hands are getting played in a far shorter space of time.
As to BP/Gorrila techniques, i have looked into setting up teams on several occasions, and my personal feeling on it was that i would never have my spotter doing anything but flat betting and moving tables whe the BP was called in. I know that several teams still use backcounting and while it does reduce the amount of time spent playing at a disadvantage, i feel that it is too easy to spot backcounters and the casinos count on this to catch teams at times. Alongside this, the unit that your BP's should be using should be large enough to make the effect of table minimums background noise in the long run, otherwise you've got a problem.
Also with this, spotters using a spread are just asking to get caught and if your BP's unit is large enough, as i said above, any saving that your spotters could make should be dwarfed to such an extent that it makes the saving only pocket change.
These are just the conclusions that i can to and do have limitations. For a starter you need to have a BIG bankroll and this can be difficult even for a big team to achieve.
On the topic of spread however, it is possible to have your BP flat betting and still achieve a very large % of the potential profit (OK so really they are still spreading as it's the difference between the spotter and the BP's bets that consititutes spread, but not varying his bet). Don Schlesinger's 'Blackjack Attack' has a lot of interesting little gems in it ;) .

RJT.
 
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Bojack1

Well-Known Member
As far as the EMFH team concept extreme caution should be used employing this method. There are far many more failures using this type of team play than there are success'. There are many great players who have played on the same team in this manner, and there have been many busted banks and hard feelings to go with it. If you so choose to be on a team in this manner you really must first trust in your teamates honesty, and than in their playing abilities. As opposed to team play where you actually play together, practice together, scrutinize finances together, and split profits together, the other way is totally on the honor system. In theory there is nothing wrong with that. But when a string of losses pile up, and its coming more from one teamate than the other a very ugly feeling will surface and it will be then that you will find out if your team will make it. In my opinion if you choose to play this way, the best way to do it is get teamates you can practice with and that you see on a regular basis. That way you can build up confidence that they will play a strong game and if a loss does occur that it was not to to poor play or cheating. Ask yourself this question, if your teamate went to Vegas for the weekend and you couldn't go, and he came back and told you he hit a horrible stretch where even in the highest counts he couldn't catch a hand, and that he lost the bankroll, would you feel like he lost all your money? If you answered yes than you should not play in this manner. The moment you combine your money it becomes the teams bankroll, and just as when someone wins, the team wins, when someone loses the team loses, even if it is the whole bankroll. Don't get me wrong, it can work, but just be careful with whom stake your money with. And make sure that you have the temperment to handle losses, not your own per say, but the team's that you can't control.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Great points Bojack! Also, even if you trust them and know that they are strong players, can you be sure that they are playing good games? How do you know that they're not wasting the team's money on DD nDAS 50% games?

There need to be very strict and specific rules laid down at the very beginning. A team manual should be read and signed by every member so that everybody agrees to the terms and conditions of their play. This will help to ensure that everybody is on the same page and that they know what to expect when issues arise.

-Sonny-
 
lvhcm

lvhcm

Banned
Automatic Monkey said:
But what do I know?
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As has already been established, not much.

If you doubt I'm for real, why not put your money where your big mouth is apeman? I've listed my references in the busted thread. Where are yours?
 
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RJT

Well-Known Member
LVHCM,
I know i said that i'd ignore your posts - and i will from now on - but seriously wtf? Why are you posting? If you are so all mighty in your knowledge that communicating with underlings like us is just a hassle for you, why bother?
You're doing this for your own little ego trip and that's just pathetic. Hope it makes your head big as hell to think that you know more than anyone here, because believe me you are the only one who believes that.
Someone who truly does know what they're talking about has no need to put others down; they are comfortable giving advice in a pleasant and supportive manner to those that know less than them. To be as totally condescending and derogatory as you've been is just a sign of personal insecurities or extreme arrogance.
Anyway, i hope that everyone else here can learn to completely ignore you as i will from this point on (reply as you like, i could no longer care less about your opinion). You weren't worth the effort of this reply, and it appears that most of the posters here would agree with that.

RJT.
 
S

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
Bojack1 said:
As far as the EMFH team concept extreme caution should be used employing this method. There are far many more failures using this type of team play than there are success'. There are many great players who have played on the same team in this manner, and there have been many busted banks and hard feelings to go with it. If you so choose to be on a team in this manner you really must first trust in your teamates honesty, and than in their playing abilities. As opposed to team play where you actually play together, practice together, scrutinize finances together, and split profits together, the other way is totally on the honor system. In theory there is nothing wrong with that. But when a string of losses pile up, and its coming more from one teamate than the other a very ugly feeling will surface and it will be then that you will find out if your team will make it. In my opinion if you choose to play this way, the best way to do it is get teamates you can practice with and that you see on a regular basis. That way you can build up confidence that they will play a strong game and if a loss does occur that it was not to to poor play or cheating. Ask yourself this question, if your teamate went to Vegas for the weekend and you couldn't go, and he came back and told you he hit a horrible stretch where even in the highest counts he couldn't catch a hand, and that he lost the bankroll, would you feel like he lost all your money? If you answered yes than you should not play in this manner. The moment you combine your money it becomes the teams bankroll, and just as when someone wins, the team wins, when someone loses the team loses, even if it is the whole bankroll. Don't get me wrong, it can work, but just be careful with whom stake your money with. And make sure that you have the temperment to handle losses, not your own per say, but the team's that you can't control.
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Well said Bojack! I am a member of one of these teams and you summed it up pretty good. I will add a few of my own observations. Trust is everything with this method and if you don't fully trust your teammates failure is a given. All teammates must fully understand that extreme variances will occur in the individual accounts and it cannot bother them. While you are on a record setting winning streak your teammates may be setting their own prolonged losing streaks. You better be comfortable after a large individual win and then having to give up all that profit and extra money out of your pocket because your partners lost more combined money.

Now I will focus on some of the positives from this method. Each member can use his own counting system which he is comfortable with. You can attack casinos from different angles, as one member is wonging shoes the other is sitting at the DD game and another is comp counting. Combining bankrolls allow players with small bankrolls to play the higher table minimums giving you more opportunities and it can allow you to play the better games in the high roller rooms. It reduces fluxuations in your account and it helps out when you have a huge loss but your teammates cover it for you and you go home that day with a profit. It gives you someone to share your good and bad experiences with who understands what you are going through on the long drive home from the casino after you split tens to four hands and lost them all with your max bet out.

One of the other things it can do is reduce your expenses. This is one topic rarely discussed among counters and can drastically cut into your EV, especially if you are an individual player with a small bankroll. Splitting gas, hotel rooms and sharing comps helps out a lot. The topic of expenses is something I will probably post about sometime in the future as midway during last year I started keeping a detailed log of my expenses down to the penny.
 
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