Land vs Online I am a newbie

Hello everyone this is my first post.

I have played at several land casinos in AC, Conn, Cruise ships and Canada. I seem to do pretty well. Most time walking out with more cash than I came with. I play BS and have recently read some books on basic counting but somehow it seems that i may have already been subconsciously keeping track of high and low cards. Any way maybe the cards were just good for me. AC being a 4 hour drive makes a weekly game hard so I thought I would try the Online Casino.

I have played at several. Tried the sticky bonus and cashable bonuses. On a whole I am down. Only got lucky on a couple of runs. The random number generator seems to favor that house more so than the land casino using a traditional shoe. Or even the automatic shuffler.

I was wondering if this has been the general consensus? Also I agree with a couple of posters as it is easier to walk away from a table game when winning and losing than it is at home. Several times I have had a run of bad cards and gone to watch TV for a while only to end up back online to blow the rest of the bank.

Hope I havent bored you to much. Would like to hear from anyone on their experiences.

Thanks

I think you are just trying to explain your losses. The online casino's 'random number generators' is that, a totally random number generator. Its the rules of their game etc that will end up taking your money. The house edge (how much of your total betting that they'll take), is not that bad, I believe, in comparison to most real casinos.

Were you playing the online casinos just to take advantage of the bonuses? If so, did you read up on how to do this first? You should have had pretty good odds of making a profit from the cashable bonuses, if you we're playing just for the bonus, not to gamble.

Most people on this Forum will tell you that the only worthwhile reason to use online casinos is to take advantage of the bonuses.

There are more losing streaks with online casinos, period. You can have a 40-hand losing streak and the cards can still be random. Online casinos boast of being certified as fair and random but that is only for the cards selected, NOT the outcome. The winning/losing outcome is DIFFERENT from the selection of the cards.

Land-based casinos have an advantage that you can SEE the shoe or shuffle machine not being tampered with. Online, you can't. An independent third party is needed to control the card deck/shoe to ensure that the hole, hit and dealer cards are not being changed after the player receives his virtual cards.

A guy named Cipher has done much work on this topic. He has software that can track your blackjack session so you can see the patterns develope as they happen. Enough said.

Liquid Chips said:

There are more losing streaks with online casinos, period. You can have a 40-hand losing streak and the cards can still be random. Online casinos boast of being certified as fair and random but that is only for the cards selected, NOT the outcome. The winning/losing outcome is DIFFERENT from the selection of the cards.

Land-based casinos have an advantage that you can SEE the shoe or shuffle machine not being tampered with. Online, you can't. An independent third party is needed to control the card deck/shoe to ensure that the hole, hit and dealer cards are not being changed after the player receives his virtual cards.

A guy named Cipher has done much work on this topic. He has software that can track your blackjack session so you can see the patterns develope as they happen. Enough said.

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I challenge your first statement outright. What gives you that indication? Personal experience?
A 40 hand streak either way has probably NEVER happened, and probably never will(except maybe if you played to lose).
I believe online casinos these days are all independantly certified and verified and monitored etc. They all rely on the specific rules of their blackjack game, with random card dealing, to make their money. Not on tricks like you hint at.
Don't the cards selected determine the outcome? You are confusing.

So with a land based Casino, how do you know they are not screwing you? Do you know that they haven't cut a few tens/pictures out? Yes? How?
You don't.

A guy named Cipher?

aussiecounter said:

I challenge your first statement outright. What gives you that indication? Personal experience?

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Both personal experience and experiences of virtually every online blackjack player. It goes without saying that online blackjack is different than on land.

A 40 hand streak either way has probably NEVER happened, and probably never will(except maybe if you played to lose).

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Cipher (of course, not his real name ) recorded a 37 hand losing streak at Lasseters.

I believe online casinos these days are all independantly certified and verified and monitored etc. They all rely on the specific rules of their blackjack game, with random card dealing, to make their money. Not on tricks like you hint at.

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I believe otherwise.

Don't the cards selected determine the outcome? You are confusing.

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Not necessarily. The outcome is determined first and the cards "randomly" selected WITHIN A RANGE OF CARDS that would provide the pre-determined outcome. As more hands are played, the more the overall distribution of cards appear to be even or "random".

So with a land based Casino, how do you know they are not screwing you? Do you know that they haven't cut a few tens/pictures out? Yes? How? You don't.

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Right, I don't. I'm not saying that land-based casinos don't screw you over. Rather that it is harder for them to do so being that land-based is regulated and the cards are watched. I believe that cheating in land-based casinos is faaar from prevalent as it is online.

A guy named Cipher?

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Of course, it's his internet name.

Liquid Chips said:

Cipher (of course, not his real name ) recorded a 37 hand losing streak at Lasseters.

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Cipher, was that the guy off those Matrix movies??

Do you guys agree with liquid chips? It seems pretty unlikely to me...

LethalWeapon said:

Do you guys agree with liquid chips? It seems pretty unlikely to me...

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On which specific item? I think some of his comments are very hard to believe(40, or 37 hand losing streak would be one in thousands of, possibly millions of billions to one), and I believed differently about how the online casinos made their hands up, but I'm not certain.

aussiecounter said:

On which specific item? I think some of his comments are very hard to believe(40, or 37 hand losing streak would be one in thousands of, possibly millions of billions to one), and I believed differently about how the online casinos made their hands up, but I'm not certain.

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Ok...looking up the posting where Cipher says 37-hands, I need to make a technical correction....the 37-hands includes pushes. He doesn't say how many but here is the post: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/39600-post29.html (Archive copy)

Here is his web address: http://www.cipherblackjack.com (Archive copy) and read his commentary on the introduction page.

I guess at this point, you'll have to make up your own minds. It wouldn't be useful to go back and forth, so I'll just shut up here on this issue. Unless of course, it comes up again later. Always have to point a newbie to a different viewpoint for his/her consideration.

I have played at many, many on-line casinos. In the beginning, I was keeping pretty detailed records of my wins and losses. My worst streak without a win ever was 18 hands, although I don't remember which casino it was in. My best winning streak while I was keeping track was 12 at Casino-On-Net. That included 3 BJs and 4 DDs.

After about 3 months of playing on-line, I was up about $1,200. Most of that was from bonuses but I was also on the plus side from the actual gambling. That convinced me that it's fair and I stopped keeping track at that point. Since then, I've collected a few more bonuses and if I had to guess I'd say that I've pretty much evened out as far as the wins/losses. I'm probably just a little negative now, which of course, I should be.

I question the Playtech casinos

I have recently played a LOT of online BJ, mostly at the Playtech casinos (the software maker). Casino Las Vegas, NY Casino, USA Casino and many others. I have played for years in land based casinos and use the typical strategy, which has been generally good. However, based upon my experience, the online Playtech casinos have some very odd outcomes.

I agree with the earlier poster who indicated his experience of truly random cards but not random outcomes. The cards may be chosen perfectly random (and the Casino is certified on this pure random event) but the outcome certainly does not seem random. Just like real BJ, I have had some great wins and some awful loses, chasing something I should not have been chasing. Online, I have had sessions where I won $17k and nights were I lost $5k. Or even worse, won $18k-$22k but did not take it home and drove it into the ground.

However, there are some very odd occurances and they are very consistent. Probably the most obvious is getting 10 cards on draw about 70% of the time. This is not a random event, in my opinion. This is ridiculous and certainly, IMHO, appears to be fixed in some regard. I have never seen so many 10 cards come out of a draw deck in my life. This info is not from a few hands or a few sessions but maybe in the range of 10,000 online hands or so. I am quite certain I have seen (8-12)10-cards in a row. Are these sterile odds...I think not considering I don't recall EVER seeing a Ace in the draw and there are other cards as well, in all of those hands.

All the Playtech casinos seem to do it about the same. Heavy 10 cards on the draw. In fact, in approximately 10,000 hands there are draw cards I have never seen. Not just a few but several.

Despite this, there seems to be some money to be made, but you have to "dodge" some of these irregularities, which is really hard to do for a solid strategy player.

I have also noticed a high amount of dealer wins on cards 2 and 6. Much more than I ever recall in land based casinos. It also appears they try to make up for much of this by dishing out player blackjacks, more regularly. I guess it is supposed to simulate a small hot spell , where the player get 2-3 blackjacks in a row, sometimes. I have had sveral sessions with 3 in a row and dozens of sessions with 2 in a row. Then, if you have some bad hands and change to lower donomination, blackjack right out of the gate, on the lower amount....go figure.

The last item that is also obvious is the winning percentage based upon the size of the bet. I have not kept great records but I know what I have seen, over all these hands. I might dump 2-4 hands in a row and switch to a lower chip and bingo, 19 or better. This is not a scientific outcome just some things I have noticed.

Has anyone seen any of these irregularities and has anyone developed a modified strategy to help the player overcome some of this (obvious) rigging?

I would really be interested in chatting with some of you who have had some of these experiences.

Regards....DDD

A few points:

If you seem to doubt the true randomness of online casinos why on earth are you playing for amounts that would see you win over $20K and lose $5K at times? If you don't trust playtech casinos why not play somewhere else or just play at real casinos? Since you're not keep stats on every hand you can't accurately say "I might dump 2-4 hands in a row and switch to a lower chip and bingo, 19 or better." People always remember the losses and "weird" events but you fail to remember the number of times you had 15 vs 10 and won because you got a "suspicious" 6 or the dealer busted.

There is money to be made online taking advantage of bonuses, you don't need any weird algorthims or strategys, just play it simple. I myself have had a good experience online as have most of the other members on here.

And for the sake of Zengrifter were you even playing basic strategy?

I have been playing basic strategy for 20 years. But my point is that I do not believe basic strategy is enough when playing Playtech casinos. There are WAY too many aberations. I know what random looks like and they do not completely deploy random technology, I don't care what they say.

For example, tonight I played for an hour or so. There is no way you can tell me, the # of 10 cards which come on a draw are a random event.

In a deck there are only 16 10-cards, which is 31% of the deck. So, in a relative long-term period, you should pull a 10-card about 3 times out of 10. I had over 60% 10-cards again tonight, in the period I was playing. This is not a casual bad run of cards. ALL of the Playtech casinos employ this strategy, apparently.

I enjoy gambling, I like the convenience of playing on-line and I have had some great runs, online. I was just inquiring if anyone had seen similar events and had possibly developed a temporary strategy to deal with their apparent "abberations".

DDD

DDD said:

I have been playing basic strategy for 20 years. But my point is that I do not believe basic strategy is enough when playing Playtech casinos. There are WAY too many aberations. I know what random looks like and they do not completely deploy random technology, I don't care what they say.

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Then why do you persist in playing there? Don't give them another dime of action. Further, if you are not primarily playing for the matching bonus amount, then the house has the edge and you are therefore just another SUCKER. Cape'ce? zg

I know when I play on-line, I go through the hands so fast that I see everything you could imagine. I think that's part of the problem when people think they're being cheated. When you're playing around 800 hands an hour, you're bound to see everything.

And ZG's right, bonus hunting is the only way to go (and what a way!) when playing on-line. I'm up about $2,500 and most of that is bonuses.

However, the one odd thing I have noticed (and maybe I'll track it from now on) is that it SEEMS that about 4 out of 5 times that the dealer is showing an Ace AND has an Ace in the whole, he hits to 21. Whenever that situation arises, I assume it's going to happen and it almost always does. Very strange.

LeonShuffle said:

However, the one odd thing I have noticed (and maybe I'll track it from now on) is that it SEEMS that about 4 out of 5 times that the dealer is showing an Ace AND has an Ace in the whole, he hits to 21. Whenever that situation arises, I assume it's going to happen and it almost always does. Very strange.

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The Ace is the dealer's strongest card because she will bust least often. zg

LeonShuffle said:

However, the one odd thing I have noticed (and maybe I'll track it from now on) is that it SEEMS that about 4 out of 5 times that the dealer is showing an Ace AND has an Ace in the whole, he hits to 21. Whenever that situation arises, I assume it's going to happen and it almost always does. Very strange.

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I urge you to play 10,000 hands or so keeping stats and see if the dealers outcomes are not what they're supposed to be.

DDD said:

In a deck there are only 16 10-cards, which is 31% of the deck. So, in a relative long-term period, you should pull a 10-card about 3 times out of 10. I had over 60% 10-cards again tonight, in the period I was playing. This is not a casual bad run of cards. ALL of the Playtech casinos employ this strategy, apparently.
DDD

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If you are so confident playtech has a screwy system why not play at another casino, there are literally 1000s of them out there. What you're doing is like putting your hand on a hot stove over and over and then wondering why your hand is burnt. Since you said you weren't keeping actual stats I doubt the number was 60%. Try playing 10,000 hands and keep track of every card and then calculate if it fits a normal deck. But if the 10s are more common I urge you not to lose heart as a deck rich in 10s is more beneficial for the player then the dealer!

E-Town - There's no need to urge me to do anything. As I've said many times before, I've played tens of thousands of hands on-line and my win rate is right where it should be. In the beginning, I was keeping track of every hand and everything was how it should be. It's just that one little oddity I've noticed about the double Aces, which as I said in my post, it SEEMS as if that happens most of the time. It doesn't mean it DOES.

ZG - I know the dealer will bust least often with an Ace. My point was that with the particular hand of TWO Aces, he hits to exactly 21 most of the time in my playing experience. I'm not saying it's because it's 'rigged' or fixed or anything. It's just a very odd coincendence.

How could a casino be "rigged" but still offer excellent bonuses which people are winning, yourself included? Call me stupid but if I was going to rig my casino I'd rig it in such a way that I'd be making more money! Your two aces scenario is likely no more than a coincidence and if you did play 1000s of hands and keep track of them you'd see them occur as often as the math says they should.

The reason so many people seem to have these conspiracy theorys is due to a few differences between real and online casinos: i) you're playing 3-4x the # of hands so you see 3-4x the number of hands. In a real casino if something odd happens a few times per hour you think nothing of it, now you play online and see 10-15 and start to worry the game is fixed. There's nothing to worry about you're simply playing more hands! ii) at the casino you're drinking, watching other tables and paying attention to your surroundings so its easy to forget some of the odd things that come up. When you're at home you can pay closer attention to the game and thus notice more of the strange hands. iii) At the brick and mortar casino you see the deck, the dealer, and the other players. If a horrible run of luck occurs you likely shake it off as simply bad luck. Online, people immediately jump to the conclusion that the game is rigged.

Forget about playing for bonuses I think I could be a spokeman for the online casinos!

E-town - Have you actually READ my posts? No? O.K., one more time. I DON'T BELIEVE on-line casinos are rigged. At least not the ones at which I've played. My win rate is EXACTLY WHERE IT SHOULD BE. I've tried before to explain why some players think they're rigged and I even WROTE IN MY POST that my example is just a coincidence.

Try to PAY ATTENTION before you post!