Shuffle Up Call

Recently I was playing a 2D ASM game when the floor person loudly called "shuffle-up" to the dealer. It occured at a time when several players were on a hot winning streak. I had also seen my $100 buy-in grow to over $400 rather quickly. Could a player have been suspected of card counting? Is this an example of heat? I did not notice anyone spreading aggressively. Are there other reasons a dealer would be instructed to re-shuffle half way thru the deal?

Casino paranoia. Also, the PC might foolishly think they can shuffle away a "hot" shoe where players are having positive variance..

I think there's a pretty good argument that preferential shuffling is blatantly illegal, and is nothing more than cheating by the casinos. I'd love to see someone fight it.

Blue Efficacy said:

Casino paranoia. Also, the PC might foolishly think they can shuffle away a "hot" shoe where players are having positive variance..

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And while already utilizing 50% penetration! Seems to me casinos would lighten up and do things to attract players, especially during bad economic times. There were a lot of empty tables this week.

I could imagine it in a place like AC, where they can't bounce counters.

Were you counting? Was the count positive? Was the PC counting?

It doesn't really even make sense to shuffle up a 2d game with bad penetration and several players playing. The next shuffle is probably one hand anyway.

No, I was not counting. Obviously, I don't know what the count was. The PC didn't appear to be watching that closely. I only remember the fact that everyone was winning. Sometimes that's all it takes, I suppose, to get the pit involved. This is the first time ever I saw a re-shuffle called.

johndoe said:

I think there's a pretty good argument that preferential shuffling is blatantly illegal, and is nothing more than cheating by the casinos. I'd love to see someone fight it.

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It's definitely allowed in Nevada. Someone should sue in another jurisdiction and see if they can get a ruling in the player's favor.

Shuffle up, change the cards, change the dealer, close the table, etc etc etc

Though there should be someone in that casino that actually understands the math behind the casinos advantage, that person usually is not the person watching your table.
Wild swings that have nothing to do with advantage are just a natural part of blackjack but uneducated, superstitious pits can react to them in ways that make you know that their knowledge of the game is no different than the average player's. There again, there is also the paranoia that something is going on, he can not grasp what it is and may land up in trouble with his bosses if he can not explain or put an end to it, so he pulls out all stops.
They shuffle up, but lose on the next stack.
They change cards but still lose. Well, perhaps the dealer is working with players.
They change dealers but still lose.
The eye reviews play and can not see anything.
The luckiest ploppy on the table is told no more blackjack and is totally dumbfounded, but the casino continues to lose.
"We have got to put an end to this", the unknowledgeable boss states, so he closes the table, pisses off all of the players and he feels he made the right move to SAVE HIS JOB!

The players now angry move to the next casino and lose back all that they won in the first casino.

Too many table game supervisors are just as superstitious as their customers and too fearful for their positions to just let the game, time and the casino advantage to take care of everything if there is no cheating going on.

ihate17

EasyRhino said:

I could imagine it in a place like AC, where they can't bounce counters.

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Can't bounce counters? Last I checked, AC casinos were all private property, and in New Jersey you can ask anyone to leave your property without giving any reason whatsoever.

While it may not happen as often in AC, it still "can."

Birdbeast said:

Can't bounce counters? Last I checked, AC casinos were all private property, and in New Jersey you can ask anyone to leave your property without giving any reason whatsoever.

While it may not happen as often in AC, it still "can."

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You must have last checked more than 20 years ago, prior to Ken Uston's lawsuit against several NJ casinos and the NJCC :grin:

They CANNOT ask you to leave for being an advantage player.

ihate17 said:

There again, there is also the paranoia that something is going on, he can not grasp what it is and may land up in trouble with his bosses if he can not explain or put an end to it, so he pulls out all stops.
They shuffle up, but lose on the next stack.
They change cards but still lose. Well, perhaps the dealer is working with players.
They change dealers but still lose.
The eye reviews play and can not see anything.
The luckiest ploppy on the table is told no more blackjack and is totally dumbfounded, but the casino continues to lose.
ihate17

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Of course they continued to lose, 17. They forgot the most important countermeasure...they didn't replace the ashtrays!! What a bunch of incompetent idiots. :grin::grin: Doesn't Norm have a section of Blackjack in Color which graphs the effect of clean ashtrays on the house's EV?

tribute said:

Recently I was playing a 2D ASM game when the floor person loudly called "shuffle-up" to the dealer. It occured at a time when several players were on a hot winning streak. I had also seen my $100 buy-in grow to over $400 rather quickly. Could a player have been suspected of card counting? Is this an example of heat? I did not notice anyone spreading aggressively. Are there other reasons a dealer would be instructed to re-shuffle half way thru the deal?

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I've never seen a pit order a shuffle up on a game with a cut card before. Only games without cut cards.

What does happen to me quite often, is when the cards get "hot" and ppl start winning, the pit will change the cards. I've had a few conversations with pit critters who have actually told me, it takes a couple of hours to "mold" the deck. Once the cards start winning again, they change the cards. A simple mind's understanding of streaks and how to prevent them.

I've been on tables where I sat down and started winning, only to see paniced pit critters hustle around the pit to get new cards on the table as quickly as possible. Sometimes they even stop the current shoe to change the cards. In a way, it's nice for me that they believe the cards are making me win, rather than my skills.

jimbiggs said:

I've been on tables where I sat down and started winning, only to see paniced pit critters hustle around the pit to get new cards on the table as quickly as possible. Sometimes they even stop the current shoe to change the cards. In a way, it's nice for me that they believe the cards are making me win, rather than my skills.

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It must be that the shift PC's are under pressure to account for what happens on their watch. I have always thought if Blackjack is such a vulnerable game, why not just shut it down!

jimbiggs said:

I've never seen a pit order a shuffle up on a game with a cut card before. Only games without cut cards.

.

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I have never seen a blackjack game without a cut card! Where are they to be found?

tribute said:

I have never seen a blackjack game without a cut card! Where are they to be found?

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In single deck games shuffles are normally determined by a predetermined number of rounds. In some stores, double deck dealers shuffle whenever they feel like it. They don't use a cut card to determine a shuffle point.

However, they do normally have a cut card behind the deck to prevent the back card from being exposed. They just don't use a second cut card to limit penetration.

tribute said:

I have never seen a blackjack game without a cut card! Where are they to be found?

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Riverside Casino in Laughlin, for one. And BTW; anyone who's never seen the pit order a shuffle on a game with a cut card obviously hasn't played much blackjack.

jimbiggs said:

In single deck games shuffles are normally determined by a predetermined number of rounds. In some stores, double deck dealers shuffle whenever they feel like it. They don't use a cut card to determine a shuffle point.

However, they do normally have a cut card behind the deck to prevent the back card from being exposed. They just don't use a second cut card to limit penetration.

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Ah, yes. The "Rule of 6". Cut card not needed. I never play single deck so I was unaware of games not using a cut card. Thanks for educating me!

Banning AP's that don't count

FLASH1296 said:

Birdbeast,

To clarify, in N.J. the casinos are strictly prohibited from 86'ing a BJ player because of his/her skill.

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This is cut and dry when talking about counting. What about other types of AP's that don't involve card counting?

ie) can Jersey casinos 86 ace sequencers, shuffle trackers, X steerers, hole carders, next carders, edge sorters, dice controllers, etc...?

Getting dealers off tables

There was a casino in Alberta, Canada that was micromanaged by a paranoid owner. He would move dealers off of games that were dumping. Rumour had it that he sued Shufflemaster and fired the dealer when a royal flush was given out on a Carnival poker game the first night he had the game on his floor.