winnawinna
Well-Known Member
What are the surrender indices?
Red Seven Indices
- Thread starter WABJ11
- Start date
Yes, I would definitely begin my ramp at -1 RC. If it comes only 1.25 decks into the shoe (about as soon as you'll see it), the TC is +1.8. If it comes 4.5 decks into the shoe, the TC is +1.3. You'll never be far off the desired +1.5 TC.winnawinna said:
Just how fast your ramp should move up from there depends upon how wide your spread is. If you use the standard 1-to-12, you'd want a slower ramp than with a 1-to-10 spread, which was presented in Bluebook II.
With 1-to-10, you'd reach your 10 unit max. sooner than you'd reach 10 units in a 1-to-12 scenario because you'll never get down anything bigger and your variance would've been dropping lower as well as your EV. So you can speed up your ramp until your variance moves most of the way back up there.
Here's a general recommendation for 1-to-10:
1 unit @ -2 RC
3 units @ -1 RC
5 units @ zero RC
7 units @ +1 RC
9 units @ +2 RC
10 units @ +3 RC>
Here's one for 1-to-12:
1 unit @ -2 RC
2.5 units @ -1 RC
4 units @ zero RC
6 units @ +1 RC
7 units @ +2 RC
9 units @ +3 RC
11 units @ +4 RC
12 units @ +5 RC>
Surrender: (adapted from page 158 of Bluebook II)
14 vs. 10 @ +4
15 vs. 9 @ zero
15 vs. 10 @ -9
15 vs. A @ -2 (@-9 w/ H17)
16 vs. 9 @ -9
16 vs. 10 @ -21
16 vs. A @ -16 (@ -26 w/H17)
8/8 vs. 10 @ -1
For H17 Only:
17 vs. A @ -2 or worse
8/8 vs. A @ -9
madscout1996
Member
Aren't you only supposed to use the indices in the second half of the shoe, according to Blackbelt In Blackjack?
Homeschool
Well-Known Member
So I understand that adjusting for R7 would put surrendering 16 v X at RC 0, but would that mean 15 x X and 16 v 9 would be at RC +12 when adjusted? Or has the -9 you have listed above already been adjusted?Renzey said:
Homeschool
winnawinna
Well-Known Member
The counts are already adjusted to R7.Homeschool said:
Renzey, how much do the counts change when using an 8 deck shoe?
Homeschool
Well-Known Member
Now that I'm not half asleep I see what I was looking at. For some reason when I read surrender I thought stand.....De Dee DeThanks for the info on this Fred.
Homeschool
Yes, you would. Follow along and see why.Shoofly said:
You begin at -4. If the cards come out neutrally, the RC will rise by 2 points for each dealt deck. Let's say after the first hand or two, 13 cards have been dealt and the RC is -1. A perfectly neutral RC would be -3.5. The remaining cards contain 1.75 decks and are 2.5 cards "heavy" in high ones. That's a +1.4 TC in a double deck game. Ramp it up.
Later in the deal where just 1 deck is left, a neutral RC would be -2 -- but yours is -1. The remaining cards contain 1 deck and are 1 card heavy in high ones. That's a +1.0 TC at a point where you are effectively playing single deck blackjack (see the "Floating Advantage"). There, you have a positive EV and should ramp it up.
What you didn't ask about, and is much trickier with an unbalanced count, is when to trip in your negative index plays, which you'll have plenty of in double deck play. Since you won't be wonging out, there will be many times you should:
hit 9 vs. 3
hit 10 vs. 9
hit 12 vs. 4
hit 12 vs. 5
hit 13 vs. 2
hit 13 vs. 3
Those are just the basic ones. Double deck is a much more strategy interactive game than the shoe, and is a lot more fun if you learn a lot of index plays. The down side is, it's much easier to get "picked off". Camo becomes somewhat of a necessity, which adds even more fun to it for you. You feel like you're doing something, rather than just being a "blackjack bot".
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Remember that if your six deck IRC is -12, then your eight deck IRC should be -16. With that, all works just about the same -- except for very early in the 8 deck shoe. There, if you get a -2 RC only two decks into it, you've got a +1.6 TC and can bet 2 or 3 units. On those rare occasions when you get a -3 RC after only 1.5 decks have been dealt, you've got a +1.5 TC and can bet 2 or 3 units.winnawinna said:
BTW, if you waited until -1 RC to bet multiple units at those shoe depths, your TC would be +1.8 in both scenarios.
zengrifter
Banned
So despite the imbalanced nature, and contrary to some of Snyder's R7 advice, you may
bet and play to the RC throughout the shoe, not just the second half, it would appear. zg
,
bet and play to the RC throughout the shoe, not just the second half, it would appear. zg
,
It's not that it's "contrary" to Arnold's advice, it's just that playing by the RC throughout the shoe is accurate enough -- in the range of multi-unit bets and positive index plays. Arnold's approach of either simply ignoring many index plays in the early part of the shoe, or having slightly different strike numbers for them early on is pretty good too.zengrifter said:
But where the real problems arise is with neutral and negative index plays. That's because unbalanced count systems are structured in the direction of rising counts. At neutral and negative counts, the "link" between the RC and TC pretty much dissolves.
The most common and most highlighted example of this is with 16 vs. 10. To play this important hand accurately with an unbalanced system, it's not so good to go directly by the RC.
That's because an averaged "neutral" RC with six decks for Red 7 would be about -6. You could use that and often be right. With a half deck gone, a -6 RC is equal to a +0.9 TC, and you should stand. But with 4 decks gone, that same -6 RC would be equal to a -1.0 TC, and you should hit! Not grossly in error -- but not quite right either.
To play that hand really right, you want to play it by the RC that would be "normal" or "neutral" for the shoe depth you are currently at.
This means that off the top of a 6 deck shoe, you should stand at -12 RC or richer, because -12 at that point is "neutral", or zero TC. But 4 decks deep into it, you should stand at -4 RC or richer, because at that point, -4 is neutral.
As a Red 7 player, you could just use -6 for playing 16 vs. 10, or you could have one index for early and another for late -- or you could become intimately familiar with what a neutral RC would be at all stages of the deck/shoe. With a six deck shoe, a neutral, or zero TC would be:
off the top: -12
one deck in: -10
two decks in: -8
three decks in: -6
four decks in: -4
five decks in: -2
At any of these RC's at these depths, you would in fact be correct to begin standing with 16 vs. 10. As your playing hours mount using an unbalanced count, you'll naturally know whether the shoe is running positive or negative by what a "normal" RC would be at any point you're currently at.
Just be aware that with Red 7, KISS and UBZ (but not KO), any RC's above the pivot (+2.0 TC) are a bit waeker early in the shoe, and a bit stronger late in the shoe. Positive RC's below the pivot are stronger early and weaker late.
This is all vividly explained and visually illustrated on pages 175 & 176 of Bluebook II.
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zengrifter
Banned
Roger that!
winnawinna
Well-Known Member
Renzey but with 16 vs 10, dont you surrender to RCs of <-17?