Blacjack Switch

Have you guys tried Blackjack Switch? Are there software simulation for this game?

Not sure about software but http://www.wizardofodds.com has the BS for it.
Its a very different game than regular BJ because a dealer 22 pushs instead of paying,so be sure to print the BS card and consult it constantly.If you play with the correct BS,the house edge is pretty small.

Snyder has a good chapter on this game in Big Book of Blackjack. The house edge is often lower then regular BJ so it can be a good opportunity if you find a good game. Here is a link to his article about online BJ Switch (which is slightly different than the onland version):

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/blackjackswitchbasicstrategy.htm

There is also a thread here with some good information from the game's creator Geoff Hall:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=5398

-Sonny-

Ty Shadrock and Sonny,

The first time this came out in our local casino I thought this is one of the casino scheme to earn money from us because the dealer pushes at 22 with players 21.

ricopuno said:

Ty Shadrock and Sonny,

The first time this came out in our local casino I thought this is one of the casino scheme to earn money from us because the dealer pushes at 22 with players 21.

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It's actually a good game and I've made quite a bit of money off it. But it's a lot different than blackjack and wouldn't recommend it unless you are very good at memorizing tables of win rates and have a lot of experience with this.

Hi Monkey,

When you said win rates are you referring to the win rate chart posted at wizardofodds.com


I know you can bring and use a basic strategy chart during actual game.

Do you think we can also bring and use win rate chart during game?

ricopuno said:

Do you think we can also bring and use win rate chart during game?

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I don't know. Maybe I guess. After all, it'd just be a BS card for switch decisions.

It could get a little impractical as you'd have to add the 4 decimal EV's of your original 2 hands, then add up the EV's of your switched hands if you switched and then make your switch decision after comparing the 2 results.

And of course it'd be possible from the EV's to make your own multi-page switch decision strategy for any combo of original 2 hands and resulting switched hands. Nothing to lose by trying it - if you're not slowing down play on what basis could they object?

That's what I did for my internet play anyway to speed up play with 100% accuracy. Loved playing it. Maybe because back then it was a +EV game with comps lol.

Kasi said:

I don't know. Maybe I guess. After all, it'd just be a BS card for switch decisions.

It could get a little impractical as you'd have to add the 4 decimal EV's of your original 2 hands, then add up the EV's of your switched hands if you switched and then make your switch decision after comparing the 2 results.

And of course it'd be possible from the EV's to make your own multi-page switch decision strategy for any combo of original 2 hands and resulting switched hands. Nothing to lose by trying it - if you're not slowing down play on what basis could they object?

That's what I did for my internet play anyway to speed up play with 100% accuracy. Loved playing it. Maybe because back then it was a +EV game with comps lol.

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Ah you were on that Playtech gravy train too, were you? There was an online Java applet someplace that did the switch calculations for you.

I'm thinking about writing a BJ Switch strategy trainer that will give you a test of switch strategy, grade you and tell you what percentage of maximum efficiency you are performing at. I think most players experienced with win rates would do a good job in terms of switching efficiency, since on the most confusing plays the difference is going to be so little you don't give up much EV.

Automatic Monkey said:

Ah you were on that Playtech gravy train too, were you? There was an online Java applet someplace that did the switch calculations for you.

I'm thinking about writing a BJ Switch strategy trainer that will give you a test of switch strategy, grade you and tell you what percentage of maximum efficiency you are performing at. I think most players experienced with win rates would do a good job in terms of switching efficiency, since on the most confusing plays the difference is going to be so little you don't give up much EV.

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That was a good train to catch. You're making me :cry: just thinking about it

The java applet was way way too slow for me - After 5 minutes I was going insane dealing with 5 dropdown boxes lol. And didn't want to rely on my brain to make the "obvious" plays or even have to wear myself out wasting 1 second even thinking about it or even caring what the switched hands would be in the first place.

So, when I was done, in less than a second, out popped the decision to switch or play, the combined EV of the original hands and the switched hands and the EV gained by making the proper play versus all dealer upcards 2 thru Ace.

And sometimes I'd think, since I could see it, "I'm only gaining 0.09 EV by making the correct play" but then sometimes I'd think "that 0.09 is 50% better than the wrong play" lol.

Hey, if you feel like it, make up a 10 question quiz and see what happens lol.

I'll promise not to cheat and I'll bet I get alot wrong too lol.

Do you play/count the game in "real life" lol?

Some Index plays

Managed to dig up some 'BJ Switch' indices for anyone who is interested in them. It was some time ago but I'm pretty sure that they are accurate and based on the standard hilo system.

I used the SBA Switch simulator to get them.

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A

8, 4, 2, 0, 1, H, H, H, H, H, // hard 12
4, 0, -2, -3, -3, H, H, H, H, H, // hard 13
0, -3, -4, -6, -6, H, H, H, H, H, // hard 14
-2, -5, -6, -8, -8, H, H, H, 9, H, // hard 15
-5, -8, -9, S, S, H, H, 9, 5, H, // hard 16

Haven't got any index plays for any 'Switch' decisions. I also didn't do any indices for doubling or splitting.

Geoff Hall said:

Managed to dig up some 'BJ Switch' indices for anyone who is interested in them. It was some time ago but I'm pretty sure that they are accurate and based on the standard hilo system.

I used the SBA Switch simulator to get them.

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A

8, 4, 2, 0, 1, H, H, H, H, H, // hard 12
4, 0, -2, -3, -3, H, H, H, H, H, // hard 13
0, -3, -4, -6, -6, H, H, H, H, H, // hard 14
-2, -5, -6, -8, -8, H, H, H, 9, H, // hard 15
-5, -8, -9, S, S, H, H, 9, 5, H, // hard 16

Haven't got any index plays for any 'Switch' decisions. I also didn't do any indices for doubling or splitting.

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Wow those seem really, really high to me. The 16 vs. 10 decision is 0 in regular BJ, I don't believe the push-on-22 rule is capable of raising it to +5.

Furthermore the index for the 12 vs. 5 decision shouldn't be lower than for the 12 vs. 4, the latter which is almost at 0 in regular BJ too. Just doesn't sound right.

Automatic Monkey said:

Wow those seem really, really high to me. The 16 vs. 10 decision is 0 in regular BJ, I don't believe the push-on-22 rule is capable of raising it to +5.

Furthermore the index for the 12 vs. 5 decision shouldn't be lower than for the 12 vs. 4, the latter which is almost at 0 in regular BJ too. Just doesn't sound right.

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Hi AM

You are right about the indices being high. I use unbalanced Zen when I play regular Blackjack so it's probable that I used the same count to devise these indices. It's a while back when I did them and I can't remember exactly what I did. I would treat them as Zen (level 2) indices.

12 vs 4 seems reasonable as it shows to hit 12 unless you have a true count of +2 or higher. Against a 5 it shows that you should hit unless the true count is 0 or higher.

It's also possible that these are for a 'Stand Soft 17' version as I also had a 'Surrender' table of indices which would suggest that I simulated these for the European version.

Switch advantage

GH
In a post last year you said advantage went up 0.6 per 1 point TC in the early stages dropping to 0.3% in higher counts. Is this still the consensus? With a switched BJ being 21 and the 1:1 payout 0.6% seems quite high. Trying to come up with a betting method.
BW

Brock Windsor said:

GH
In a post last year you said advantage went up 0.6 per 1 point TC in the early stages dropping to 0.3% in higher counts. Is this still the consensus? With a switched BJ being 21 and the 1:1 payout 0.6% seems quite high. Trying to come up with a betting method.
BW

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Hi Brock

I performed those TC ratios for switched BJ = BJ so it's quite possible that they may drop slightly for switched BJ = 21. I may dust off the simulator at some point, if I get time, to do some more thorough testing.

There was talk about producing a book, in conjunction with the creator of the simulator, but I don't feel that the game has enough widespread popularity at present to make it a worthwhile venture.

Incidentally, the game will be installed in Kansas City and Indiana next month in case there are players in those areas that enjoy the game.

Geoff Hall said:

There was talk about producing a book, in conjunction with the creator of the simulator, but I don't feel that the game has enough widespread popularity at present to make it a worthwhile venture.

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Switch is a great game but the problem is it is dominated by CSM's in most stores. Shoes games are few and far between.

Blackjack switch

I find that the switching part is easy but playing the hands correctly is hard. You do not use the same basic stragedy in blackjack switch that you do in regular blackjack the stragedy have a lot of changes in them and you will lose if you use regular bs on blackjack switch. Plus you don't have a great stragedy trainer like this one to train. I was wondering how much of an edge you can get by counting this game down.

Cardcounter said:

I find that the switching part is easy but playing the hands correctly is hard. You do not use the same basic stragedy in blackjack switch that you do in regular blackjack the stragedy have a lot of changes in them and you will lose if you use regular bs on blackjack switch. Plus you don't have a great stragedy trainer like this one to train. I was wondering how much of an edge you can get by counting this game down.

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The switching part is the hard part, playing the hands after that is easy as it's just BS for the game.

As far as I know, no public counting system has yet been devised that might change the BS switch decisions in the first place. Or even just the BS decisions in the 2nd place.

So, in my mind, it's a very low -EV game and worthy of anybody's consideration who accepts it as such. Basically, the house loves it, not for its actual EV but for how much it's actual EV is due to player errors whether they be by switching decisions or BS decisions.

Maybe kinda like SP21 - using BJ BS would be completely insane. But why anyone would in the first place compare a BJ BS to a different game kind of escapes me. I can't even grasp the concept that all BJ BS are the same lol.

I don't even know the current typical LV game rules compared to the Playtech rules I'm used to.

I do know anyone can download a BJSwitch game from blackjackswitch.com to fool around with - how those rules may compare to Vegas I just don't know.

But how anyone would know or measure if one made the right switch and/or play decision even after doing that, I don't know. I know how I used to do it in 5 keystrokes though lol but I didn't have to worry about my accuracy in "real-life" decisions since it was the internet and I could just type the 4 cards with my left hand and click the right answer with my right. I suppose it actually would be adaptable as a BS trainer for switch decisions but not play decisions.

I guess one's best bet would be to laboriously use the BJS calculator at the Wiz's site for switch decisions and his BS for play decisions.

What are the typical Vegas rules and HA anyway?

I guess that's for Geoff in case he stops by. Or anyone lol.

And, I'd just like to add, I think that's absolutely the coolest thing that he invented a game that's still around and maybe even still expanding into different places.

Is that incredible game in Russia still around lol?

I know you worked your as* off for it Geoff and I hope it's making you and/or Karel (is that right?) a boatload. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy because there isn't one. God bless.

Kind Words Indeed !

Hi Kasi,

Many thank's for your post - I especially liked the end part Seriously though, it's always an uplifting part of what I do when I get such positive feedback from experienced players such as yourself.

To answer your question, the original US land-based version has a house edge of 0.16% and is still available at Casino Royale. Unfortunately, when Harrah's placed the game on the 'Strip', it got attacked by an AP team and the win rate dropped significantly as a result. Harrah's then removed the game and I had to tweak the rules in order to get it into other Harrah's properties. So, there are actually 4 versions available to date :-

1. Hit Soft 17 Switched BJ = BJ (e.g.Casino Royale) 0.16%
2. Hit Soft 17 Switched BJ = 21 BJ's auto win (e.g.Tropicana) 0.37%
3. Hit Soft 17 Switched BJ = 21 (e.g. Harrah's, Reno/LakeTahoe) 0.59%
4. Stand Soft 17 Switched BJ = 21 (e.e. Fallsvue, Ontario) 0.25%

The game in Russia is still there BUT they have removed ES so the house edge is now around 0.2% rather than being player positive.

Expect some big news in around 2 weeks time as I'm in talks currently and expect something to happen soon. I'm off to Las Vegas on Tuesday, for 4 weeks, so if anyone wishes to meet up for a chat then just drop me an email.

Finally, 'Good Luck' with your playing and I hope that you get the chance to try the game in a land-based casino near you sometime.

Best regards

Geoff

Kasi said:

As far as I know, no public counting system has yet been devised that might change the BS switch decisions in the first place.

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Is there interest?

This is something I could whip up on my simulator relatively easily.

Edit: I don't mean to imply that I have already done this and know of a counting scheme that works. I'm saying that it would be easy for me to investigate, but there's a chance I would do it and the answer would be, "No, there is no counting scheme to guide the switching process."

callipygian said:

Is there interest?

This is something I could whip up on my simulator relatively easily.

Edit: I don't mean to imply that I have already done this and know of a counting scheme that works. I'm saying that it would be easy for me to investigate, but there's a chance I would do it and the answer would be, "No, there is no counting scheme to guide the switching process."

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Are you kidding ?

Take the chance you would be the only person on the planet to develop a counting system that would turn a very low initial -EV game into a +EV game?
And then be kind enough to share it with the world?

Maybe the counting system need only address the BS plays after a neutral switch decision for all I know.

Maybe Katrina Walker started by asking herself the same question about SP21. Maybe you should have asked yourself the same with SP21 first.

Where I would start, had I the skills, would be to at least duplicate the Wiz EV tables with his rules and infinite deck assumptions.

Later, use the Playtech rules with BS only. If we agree on the switch decisions that would be changed compared to the Wiz and agree on the BS changes compared to the Wiz, you have a potential investor.

"Is there interest???" Sheeeshhh. :grin: