Best technique to physically count cards

Y

Young Man

Member
Hi all,

I've been training myself to count cards for a couple of months now and would like to get some advice on how you scan and count the cards in real play, how I can improve my technique.

My Background Training
OK, first up, I have no problem with arithmetic and have a maths degree, so adding/subtracting is not an issue.

I've practised counting through a pack and can now do it accurately, 4 times out of 5, in around 30-35 seconds.

I have an iphone app called "Card Counter" and can get perfect score on hard level, and do pretty well at expert level (it advises that a perfect score on hard level is good enough to count cards for real).

I was getting my GF to play the dealer, but have since stopped this as she's too slow a dealer and as such maybe it's not a good idea to condition myself against that speed.

CASINO VISIT
So I went to the casino three times now.

First time had no chance of keeping count as too much adrenaline slowed down my mind.

Second time I was able to keep an approx count, I estimate within +-3 of the correct figure.

Third visit, the dealer was too fast for me, even though I can count through a pack at a faster pace at home!

TECHNIQUE
So I've been thinking why with all my training am I struggling to keep the count? And the conclusion i've come to is that I haven't adequately trained my brain to count realtive to the way the cards are put down on the table.

E.g. The dealer, deals one card to each player left (his) to right, deals himself a cared, then deals everyone a second card. Then players have to make a decision hit/stand, etc...

Counting each individual card as they are thrown out on the table isn't working for me. I just can't keep up with a fast dealer.

So the technique I think I'll try is as follows:

Begin the count when the dealer gives himself his first card, then only count the players cards as the dealer gives each player their second card (so I start with dealers single card, then count the players pairs as they recieve their second card), adding the values to the total. Then, singly count each additional card (third and subsequent) a player requests as and when it happens, again adding/relative to the total. Then singly count dealers second and subsequent cards as they are dealt, again adding/relative to the total.

This way I hope to cope with a dealer who quickly throws out the first two cards. But is this the best approach?

So what I'd be interetsted to know is, how you counters who can keep the count under a fast flowing game, how do you add them together, what structure/method do you use? What would you advise me to use? Any ideas on additional ways I can practice? I have started dealing to imaginary players and employing the method described above.

Also, do you find it difficult to keep a count and also add up the cards your playing in order to make the correct BS decision?

Is it normal to struggle at the start? How many visits did it take you to do this at ease? Can you do it at ease or does it still require a vast amount of concentration?

I'm sure I can get this with practice, just based on the fact that a month ago I couldn't count through a pack in less than a minute & 10 seconds.

Thanks!!!
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
It takes awhile, to get pretty profecient so dont get frusterated. Try avoiding lighting fast dealers until you get more experience.As far as your appoach on what method to use to count the actuall cards. Use the method in which you described.

Also remember, with a full table the actual counting becomes tougher vereses heads up. But when playing heads-up True count calculations becomes tougher, than actual counting.

Practice at home dealing to yourself on the playeres side of the table. Play with a few ghost hands and play those hands according to the count. When the cut-card comes(i use a joker) count down the remaining cards in pairs. Then see if you able to correctly guess the last card for accuracy.

Know which pairs cancel each other out, down cold.
 
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serious

serious

Member
LOL... patience young padawan

Young Man said:
Hi all,

I've been training myself to count cards for a couple of months now and would like to get some advice on how you scan and count the cards in real play, how I can improve my technique.

My Background Training
OK, first up, I have no problem with arithmetic and have a maths degree, so adding/subtracting is not an issue.

I've practised counting through a pack and can now do it accurately, 4 times out of 5, in around 30-35 seconds.

I have an iphone app called "Card Counter" and can get perfect score on hard level, and do pretty well at expert level (it advises that a perfect score on hard level is good enough to count cards for real).

I was getting my GF to play the dealer, but have since stopped this as she's too slow a dealer and as such maybe it's not a good idea to condition myself against that speed.

CASINO VISIT
So I went to the casino three times now.

First time had no chance of keeping count as too much adrenaline slowed down my mind.

Second time I was able to keep an approx count, I estimate within +-3 of the correct figure.

Third visit, the dealer was too fast for me, even though I can count through a pack at a faster pace at home!

TECHNIQUE
So I've been thinking why with all my training am I struggling to keep the count? And the conclusion i've come to is that I haven't adequately trained my brain to count realtive to the way the cards are put down on the table.

E.g. The dealer, deals one card to each player left (his) to right, deals himself a cared, then deals everyone a second card. Then players have to make a decision hit/stand, etc...

Counting each individual card as they are thrown out on the table isn't working for me. I just can't keep up with a fast dealer.

So the technique I think I'll try is as follows:

Begin the count when the dealer gives himself his first card, then only count the players cards as the dealer gives each player their second card (so I start with dealers single card, then count the players pairs as they recieve their second card), adding the values to the total. Then, singly count each additional card (third and subsequent) a player requests as and when it happens, again adding/relative to the total. Then singly count dealers second and subsequent cards as they are dealt, again adding/relative to the total.

This way I hope to cope with a dealer who quickly throws out the first two cards. But is this the best approach?

So what I'd be interetsted to know is, how you counters who can keep the count under a fast flowing game, how do you add them together, what structure/method do you use? What would you advise me to use? Any ideas on additional ways I can practice? I have started dealing to imaginary players and employing the method described above.

Also, do you find it difficult to keep a count and also add up the cards your playing in order to make the correct BS decision?

Is it normal to struggle at the start? How many visits did it take you to do this at ease? Can you do it at ease or does it still require a vast amount of concentration?

I'm sure I can get this with practice, just based on the fact that a month ago I couldn't count through a pack in less than a minute & 10 seconds.

Thanks!!!
Click to expand...
"2 Months"! Buddy, I'm glad to hear that you're chomping at the bit, but really 2 months is nothing. Practice practice practice. It's not easy otherwise everyone would be doing it. And the fact you have a maths degree doesn't mean you will find it any easier than the next person.

You're technique is fine - you just need to get to the point where keeping track of the cards is second nature. Keep practicing. Once you can count down a pack of cards (accurately 10 x out of 10) in 20 seconds, then you go to the casino.

Remember at the casino you have many other distractions; you may need to converse with people, look away, talk to the dealer... AND you need to play perfect BS without looking like you are concentrating too hard on the cards.

You can only do this when counting becomes so easy for you that you can do it consistently and easily without thinking so hard about it. 2 months is never going to be enough time to get to that stage! try 2 years!

You are on the right path young padawan, but you still have far to go. Keep at it and it will pay off.

S
 
Jack_Black

Jack_Black

Well-Known Member
The fastest way to learn how to count?

trial by fire!!

I'm actually upgrading my count to a level 2 system right now. What do I do? flat bet at the table and practice for hours on end. get free drinks, talk to beautiful waitresses, have the pit boss kiss my ass, and have fun practicing instead of doing tedious drills at home. I've found that counting a deck down to 30 sec, has limited application in real casino counting. It's akin to a boxer who is excellent on the speed bag, but lacking in every other area once he gets in the ring.

dont' wanna flat bet and lose .5%? stand behind a table and count. get some good wonging practice in that way too. You'll know when people sense something's weird with you before you need to start observing another table.
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
Young Man said:
Hi all,

I've been training myself to count cards for a couple of months now and would like to get some advice on how you scan and count the cards in real play, how I can improve my technique.

My Background Training
OK, first up, I have no problem with arithmetic and have a maths degree, so adding/subtracting is not an issue.

I've practised counting through a pack and can now do it accurately, 4 times out of 5, in around 30-35 seconds.

I have an iphone app called "Card Counter" and can get perfect score on hard level, and do pretty well at expert level (it advises that a perfect score on hard level is good enough to count cards for real).

I was getting my GF to play the dealer, but have since stopped this as she's too slow a dealer and as such maybe it's not a good idea to condition myself against that speed.

CASINO VISIT
So I went to the casino three times now.

First time had no chance of keeping count as too much adrenaline slowed down my mind.

Second time I was able to keep an approx count, I estimate within +-3 of the correct figure.

Third visit, the dealer was too fast for me, even though I can count through a pack at a faster pace at home!

TECHNIQUE
So I've been thinking why with all my training am I struggling to keep the count? And the conclusion i've come to is that I haven't adequately trained my brain to count realtive to the way the cards are put down on the table.

E.g. The dealer, deals one card to each player left (his) to right, deals himself a cared, then deals everyone a second card. Then players have to make a decision hit/stand, etc...

Counting each individual card as they are thrown out on the table isn't working for me. I just can't keep up with a fast dealer.

So the technique I think I'll try is as follows:

Begin the count when the dealer gives himself his first card, then only count the players cards as the dealer gives each player their second card (so I start with dealers single card, then count the players pairs as they recieve their second card), adding the values to the total. Then, singly count each additional card (third and subsequent) a player requests as and when it happens, again adding/relative to the total. Then singly count dealers second and subsequent cards as they are dealt, again adding/relative to the total.

This way I hope to cope with a dealer who quickly throws out the first two cards. But is this the best approach?

So what I'd be interetsted to know is, how you counters who can keep the count under a fast flowing game, how do you add them together, what structure/method do you use? What would you advise me to use? Any ideas on additional ways I can practice? I have started dealing to imaginary players and employing the method described above.

Also, do you find it difficult to keep a count and also add up the cards your playing in order to make the correct BS decision?

Is it normal to struggle at the start? How many visits did it take you to do this at ease? Can you do it at ease or does it still require a vast amount of concentration?

I'm sure I can get this with practice, just based on the fact that a month ago I couldn't count through a pack in less than a minute & 10 seconds.

Thanks!!!
Click to expand...
One key to my own card counting success is quickly finding card groups that cancel. For example, I am not quick to count a ten/ten as -1/-1 because usually there will be another hand at a full table that is small/small (+1/+1), or two hands that are small/neutral(+1/+1). Of course the most commonplace cancellation is small/large (for example, K/2), a hand that you can ignore from the start. Also, a small/neutral is canceled by a large/neutral. If you kind of look at the table as a whole, all these canceling combinations will jump out at you. Seldom does this technique lead to confusion as when you have a ten/ten on the first hand and no corresponding small/small or small/neutral/small/neutral. For those hands, I quickly recognize that I just have to count normally. In some hands, ten/ten plus ten/ten plus ten/ten plus ten/ten plus 2/ten plus dealer A, I just add minus nine to the RC. So in a way, being slow to count is my key to being able to count quickly and with greater ease. I also pick a place such as 4th, 5th or 6th position at the table (assuming 6 places). If I am in 1st, 2nd or 3rd position, I will count more traditionally to some extent, because the dealer will be waiting for me to play my hand in short order.

In many, many situations when you take the table as a whole, there are more hands and combinations to ignore than there are hands to count. How often do you see such hands as ten/6, ten/5, 3/ten, A/7, ten/ten, 4/nine? The count beginning at -3 is ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore, -5, -4. I am way too lazy to count -4, -3, -4, -3, -2, -3, -4, -3, -4, -5, -4, -4.
 
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V

Vytas

Active Member
CC training

Check out the Blackjack School on this site. Get a copy of Casino Verite. Learn to count cards in groups of 2, with this you should be able to count down a deck in 20 secs. At the casino, I'll some times use my finger tips on the felt or my leg to keep a count while talking or whatever while distracted, if count goes over 5 move a red chip over as a mneumonic and keep going. Neg. count use the other hand. If the count is + then slams down very quickly, Wong out for a phone call and look for a tracking opportunity with that slug. This is what works for me. While at this stage of your training you should have a deck of cards with you all the time, ready to practise at a red light, in the john, wherever you have a minute or 2 of down time. Like the man said, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice"
 
Y

Young Man

Member
Well i have a deck in my bag quite often. Also have iphone apps to practice on as well, quite handy to practice BS and counting. Still, i get your point :)
 
L

LevelHeaded

Member
grunching here but i look for cards that cancel each other out. like say first base gets a king and four, i totally ignore that and move on to to next players hand.
 
Zero

Zero

Well-Known Member
Young Man said:
Begin the count when the dealer gives himself his first card, then only count the players cards as the dealer gives each player their second card (so I start with dealers single card, then count the players pairs as they recieve their second card), adding the values to the total. Then, singly count each additional card (third and subsequent) a player requests as and when it happens, again adding/relative to the total. Then singly count dealers second and subsequent cards as they are dealt, again adding/relative to the total.
Click to expand...
This is much better than counting each card as they come out. It not only allows you to cancel opposing cards and not have to "count" them, it also allows you to not stare at every card as it comes out. When the first cards are coming out, play with your chips, or look at the TV, or the roulette results board, or the nice rack on that blonde at first base. Look anywhere except the cards being dealt. After the dealer begins dealing the second cards, then you can start counting them in pairs. Also, don't start with the dealer's up card. Start with the pair at first base. As you're moving down the table, if you see a -1/0 or +1/0 pair, glance over at the dealers up card to see if you can use it to cancel that pair (just remember if you've already counted it when you get to third base).

The next obstacle you will need to clear (if you're like me) is keeping track of the running count through the entire shoe. I find it easy to keep the count when everything is normal but as soon as something extraordinary happens (e.g. I've got 33 vs 4, I need to split - I get an A, A3 vs 4, I need to hit - I get a 2, 3A2, that's like an A5 vs 4, I need to double, oh wait, I just need a hit, I get another 3, so that's like A8 vs 4, I can stand - oh crap what was the count again?), I lose it and end up flat betting and playing BS the rest of the shoe. I also find myself loosing the count if I get too into counting the dealers total when they're running out to 5 and 6 cards. Until I can get this down it's all just practice.

0
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
Zero said:
This is much better than counting each card as they come out. It not only allows you to cancel opposing cards and not have to "count" them, it also allows you to not stare at every card as it comes out. When the first cards are coming out, play with your chips, or look at the TV, or the roulette results board, or the nice rack on that blonde at first base. Look anywhere except the cards being dealt. After the dealer begins dealing the second cards, then you can start counting them in pairs. Also, don't start with the dealer's up card. Start with the pair at first base. As you're moving down the table, if you see a -1/0 or +1/0 pair, glance over at the dealers up card to see if you can use it to cancel that pair (just remember if you've already counted it when you get to third base).

The next obstacle you will need to clear (if you're like me) is keeping track of the running count through the entire shoe. I find it easy to keep the count when everything is normal but as soon as something extraordinary happens (e.g. I've got 33 vs 4, I need to split - I get an A, A3 vs 4, I need to hit - I get a 2, 3A2, that's like an A5 vs 4, I need to double, oh wait, I just need a hit, I get another 3, so that's like A8 vs 4, I can stand - oh crap what was the count again?), I lose it and end up flat betting and playing BS the rest of the shoe. I also find myself loosing the count if I get too into counting the dealers total when they're running out to 5 and 6 cards. Until I can get this down it's all just practice.

0
Click to expand...
To burn the RC into my memory when distractions are anticipated I visualize the running count number as a large physical number. I guess I'm a visual person and this helps my recall tremendously. I doubt if it will work for everyone, but it does help me. Also, I don't use negative numbers. Instead, I make 100 my zero, so that minus 4 is 96. Plus 4 is 104, or just 4, whichever you prefer.

96.jpg


​
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
topher said:
aslan, It's interesting that you visualize the count. I admit that I "say" the count in my head and according to the article in the link below, saying the count in your head is bad. Visualizing is good.

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Blackjack_Card_Counting_Tips.htm
Click to expand...
I was having trouble remembering the count when serious distractions forced me to take my mind off it temporarily. For example, when the pit guy would come over and ask me a question or strike up a conversation, or my favorite team would score a touchdown on the overhead screen. lol In groping for a solution to this problem, I began visualizing the number instead of just counting and memorizing. I don't know that it works for everyone. Some people are more "visual" than others.
 
P

pogostick

Well-Known Member
I had the same trouble. Running count was no problem if there was no distractions . Try this system of counting ,it will make no differance how fast the dealer is or how many players are at the table. Only count after the cards have been dealt . Q,j a 10, 7,8,9 6 m 3 . Don't repeat in your mind min 1, min 2, min 3, min 4 (min 3) . Practice looking at final deal then count each + or - when player takes a hit. If the total count is on the +side ,just say that number leaving out the plus . If it goes to minus ,just say m that number. It will take a while to train your mind to only see the 23456 10 j q k a. 7 8 9 will be blank. The less you have to repeat the more distractions you can handle. . . GOOD LUCK.. POGO
 
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metronome

metronome

Well-Known Member
aslan said:
To burn the RC into my memory when distractions are anticipated I visualize the running count number as a large physical number. I guess I'm a visual person and this helps my recall tremendously. I doubt if it will work for everyone, but it does help me. Also, I don't use negative numbers. Instead, I make 100 my zero, so that minus 4 is 96. Plus 4 is 104, or just 4, whichever you prefer.

Click to expand...
Like Aslan I shifted my IRC number up to avoid negative numbers. although in 8 d. shoes my IRC is still zero. I've started visualizing the number line, "thinking left" for minus or "thinking right" for plus. Also wait till all cards are on the felt. Cancelling out works more efficiently for me that way. I now carry my laptop loaded with CV and Hoyle Casino and practice practice practice in my RV. Gets my mind rebooted if you will, especially after a long lag. And there are two decks in the camper also.
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
pogostick said:
I had the same trouble. Running count was no problem if there was no distractions . Try this system of counting ,it will make no differance how fast the dealer is or how many players are at the table. Only count after the cards have been dealt . Q,j a 10, 7,8,9 6 m 3 . Don't repeat in your mind min 1, min 2, min 3, min 4 (min 3) . Practice looking at final deal then count each + or - when player takes a hit. If the total count is on the +side ,just say that number leaving out the plus . If it goes to minus ,just say m that number. It will take a while to train your mind to only see the 23456 10 j q k a. 7 8 9 will be blank. The less you have to repeat the more distractions you can handle. . CANCEL OUT HANDS, EXAMPLE, Q (789) NO VALUE . GOOD LUCK.. POGO
Click to expand...
My habit is to wait until the deal is complete, then quickly move from 1st base around the board to the dealer, then begin counting the hits. Cancellations make it a very quick and easy process. During the deal and before I start the count, if a ten/ten appears, I'm on the lookout for a small/small to cancel it, and vice versa. Sometimes I can "see" the count with hardly any effort. And like I said, I use only positive numbers, with 100 being my zero. I also have trained myself to speed up the count to anticipate a dealer blackjack, because then the cards are quickly scooped up. As before, counting is not the problem, but distractions, especially those that require a response on my part, for example, a pit boss asking me a question, or a waitress delivering my cup of coffee. The more I "visualize or see" the number in my head, the less trouble I have dealing with interruptions, and like metronome, I see negative counts to the left and positive counts to the right. I also see negative numbers going downhill to the left, while positive numbers are going uphill to the right.
 
M

MrSmith

Active Member
I'm new to counting and I was having trouble keeping track of the count and keeping my hand total as well. Since you have an iPhone my advice is to get the app "21 Pro". I use the free/sponsored version as it covered everything I needed. It allows you to set up any table rules you want, 1 to 8 decks in a shoe, keeps the Hi-Lo and KO count, running, true count & key count as well as bet factor, dealer advice button for basic strategy and you can turn on/off your hand totals for practice. It is fully customizeable. I feel it's the ultimate practice tool because it provides instant feedback on everything. You can ask the dealer for the perfect basic strategy play on each hand. Turn off the hand totals to practice keeping the count and adding up your hand at the same time. Play 2, 10, or 50 hands in a row then check to see if your count is right. You can check the count after every hand if you like. You can even customize the shuffle type and deck penetration. No need to keep a deck with you. Use the deck at home. You should also buy a couple dozen decks of cards to practice deck estimation. I leave them stacked on my coffee table so I'm always looking at them.

Just like you I practiced every day, 3 to 4 hours a day minimum, for about 2 months before I hit the casino. I also have the luxury of having a buddy who has counted for several years. I didn't go play for cash until I knew BS perfectly, could count a full deck in under 30 seconds without counting in pairs, & sit in my living room with my buddy dealing a full table in front of me at his fastest speed while keeping count AND playing all 5 hands while adding their hand totals. I kept track of my hourly play, win/loss and attire (just for the hell of it) plus again I had the luxury of him watching me with feedback after we left the casino.

My post about it is here. Hope this helps. If not then at least if you lose any money you'll know someone out there lost more. :)

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=19433

Unfortunately, it wasn't pretty for the first 2 weeks. I haven't updated the post in a couple weeks but I've been able to win some of it back. After analyzing my play with my buddy we've come to the conclusion that most, if not all of it, is negative variance. Mainly because I just don't make mistakes in practice or live play and we have agreed on the counts and betting. I just couldn't win a hand with a high count and big bets out. I only mention this because I'm sure you're aware that it can happen. I'll go into more detail in my own thread. :)

21 Pro really helped me practice keeping the count and adding my hand totals and you can practice it anywhere and people just think you're bored and playing BJ. There really is no subsitute for live play, however. Good luck and I hope this helps.
 
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