Has trespassing AP's been voided in Nevada?

http://bj21.com/al/Order to Dismiss.PDF

From the BJ21 newsletter.

Al Rogers doesn't think this ruling is useful as a precedent. I somewhat disagree. It won't keep us from being backed off at blackjack, but what it does appear to do is prevent one of the nastier and potentially dangerous forms of backoff, threatening us with arrest under the Trespass Act, from being used against us. This is because the judge has ruled patrons cannot be barred from a casino at will, they have to be disruptive or disorderly for that to be done, which AP is not and AP's typically are not.

This would limit their backoff options to the benign "any game but blackjack" or simply not dealing to us.

Can Al or anyone else with a deeper understanding of NV gaming law weigh in on this?

There's a thread on Green Chip about it. In a nutshell, since this isn't an appellate court decision, it's not a precedent-setting case.

Email sent to you, AM.

I read this article yesterday as well and am very interested too!

Automatic Monkey said:

http://bj21.com/al/Order%20to%20Dismiss.PDF

From the BJ21 newsletter.

Al Rogers doesn't think this ruling is useful as a precedent. I somewhat disagree. It won't keep us from being backed off at blackjack, but what it does appear to do is prevent one of the nastier and potentially dangerous forms of backoff, threatening us with arrest under the Trespass Act, from being used against us. This is because the judge has ruled patrons cannot be barred from a casino at will, they have to be disruptive or disorderly for that to be done, which AP is not and AP's typically are not.

This would limit their backoff options to the benign "any game but blackjack" or simply not dealing to us.

Can Al or anyone else with a deeper understanding of NV gaming law weigh in on this?

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I can't give you any deeper insight, but IMO every such ruling chips away at the once black and white thought on casino trespass in NV. It's refreshing that the courts are finally beginning to come to their senses long numbed, I'm guessing, by mob and big corporate influence, and by self-serving politicians. This latest ruling seems more in line with thinking around the nation on trespass and the right to refuse business outside the context of casinos. On second thought, I should modify my original statement, due to my propensity for overstatement and optimism: "It's refreshing that the courts have temporarily come to their senses...." Casino dominance on the Las Vegas scene has not suddenly vanished. Still, I prefer to think of it as the first step in a long process that will eventually come to fruition.

21forme said:

There's a thread on Green Chip about it. In a nutshell, since this isn't an appellate court decision, it's not a precedent-setting case.

Email sent to you, AM.

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The precedent was set 32 years ago in the Wilkinson case, which is detailed on BJ21. Ever since then, the threat of trespassing has really been a meaningless threat, in which the casinos are blowing smoke up your ass with such a threat. If you are arrested for trespassing for a non criminal activity like card counting, it is pretty clear from that case that you would prevail upon appeal. Of course all that takes money, plus the fact that they can't legally arrest you for trespassing doen't mean they have to let you play.

Note

kewljason said:

The precedent was set 32 years ago in the Wilkinson case, which is detailed on BJ21. Ever since then, the threat of trespassing has really been a meaningless threat, in which the casinos are blowing smoke up your ass with such a threat. If you are arrested for trespassing for a non criminal activity like card counting, it is pretty clear from that case that you would prevail upon appeal. Of course all that takes money, plus the fact that they can't legally arrest you for trespassing doen't mean they have to let you play.

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Tribal casinos can do as they please so proceed with caution on their turf.

CP

creeping panther said:

Tribal casinos can do as they please so proceed with caution on their turf.

CP

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That's your area of expertise and one of the reasons that I visit them infrequently.

If you are arrested for trespassing for a non criminal activity like card counting, it is pretty clear from that case that you would prevail upon appeal

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This is one heck of a sentence.
How can you be arrested for non criminal activity. If cases like this have been dealt with already why would you be in court in the first place. What is there to appeal. If it goes this far, appeal can only be on the basis that the judge has err in the law and not the findings of the court.

Mr. T said:

This is one heck of a sentence.
How can you be arrested for non criminal activity. If cases like this have been dealt with already why would you be in court in the first place. What is there to appeal. If it goes this far, appeal can only be on the basis that the judge has err in the law and not the findings of the court.

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Ideally, you are correct. However, in Nevada and Las Vegas in particular, local law enforcement and local judges tend to be very casino industry-friendly in their interpretation and enforcement of the law.

kewljason said:

The precedent was set 32 years ago in the Wilkinson case, which is detailed on BJ21. Ever since then, the threat of trespassing has really been a meaningless threat, in which the casinos are blowing smoke up your ass with such a threat. If you are arrested for trespassing for a non criminal activity like card counting, it is pretty clear from that case that you would prevail upon appeal. Of course all that takes money, plus the fact that they can't legally arrest you for trespassing doen't mean they have to let you play.

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But it's common that businesses (for example, bars) DO have people barred (under their right of refusal) and the police do support their request (in every case I've ever heard of) to have you removed from the premises. True, you can take it to court, and you may well prevail, but that still doesn't keep them from throwing you out. Maybe, it would go badly for them if they continually barred you for the same reason overturned by the court. In that case, it doesn't take much imagination to figure out that they can still use some trumped up charge against you (disorderly conduct, offensive odor, cursing, cheating, you name it). I think you'll find that their money is longer than yours for these court battles.

Mr. T said:

This is one heck of a sentence.
How can you be arrested for non criminal activity. If cases like this have been dealt with already why would you be in court in the first place. What is there to appeal. If it goes this far, appeal can only be on the basis that the judge has err in the law and not the findings of the court.

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I'll give you an example.
Back when Rudy G was mayor of NYC, he instructed his police chief to conduct sting operations that resulted in thousands of arrests on the charge of "attempted possesion of marijuana". A judge ruled that there was no such crime in the criminal code but Rudy Gs cops continued arresting hundreds of people a week on this charge.Only now they gave out Desk Appearence Tickets so people were not brought to court and in front of a judge. Many were young, naive people who didn't know the law and who plead guilty andpaid the fine for a crime they couldn't commit as it was not a crime in the first place.
In the end, they had to appeal a conviction on a crime that didn't exist or have an arrest and conviction on their police record.

shadroch said:

I'll give you an example.
Back when Rudy G was mayor of NYC, he instructed his police chief to conduct sting operations that resulted in thousands of arrests on the charge of "attempted possesion of marijuana". A judge ruled that there was no such crime in the criminal code but Rudy Gs cops continued arresting hundreds of people a week on this charge.Only now they gave out Desk Appearence Tickets so people were not brought to court and in front of a judge. Many were young, naive people who didn't know the law and who plead guilty andpaid the fine for a crime they couldn't commit as it was not a crime in the first place.
In the end, they had to appeal a conviction on a crime that didn't exist or have an arrest and conviction on their police record.

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And I thought these things happen only in third world countries.

Mr. T said:

And I thought these things happen only in third world countries.

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He said NYC! :laugh:

kewljason said:

He said NYC! :laugh:

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Does that mean that money the Federal government sends there is foreign aid? I'm just asking??? :laugh::joker::whip: j/k I think

Alright so I just got barred from a property, they read some kind of statement from a card he kept in his wallet about not returning and being arrested for tesspassing. who can I call to make a big deal out of it.

Ferretnparrot said:

Alright so I just got barred from a property, they read some kind of statement from a card he kept in his wallet about not returning and being arrested for tesspassing. who can I call to make a big deal out of it.

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Don't call anyone.
Just know that you can return and play without fear at a later date. zg

zengrifter said:

Don't call anyone.
Just know that you can return and play without fear at a later date. zg

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So dispite them reading me this statement saying it is a misdemeaner to return, I can infactr return and they were really liing about it?

One casino " made " me sign something , I'm assumming I didn't have to sign it , but could I still legally return ?

Ferretnparrot said:

they were really lying about it?

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First rule of cops: Cops lie!

Definition of security guard: A person who THINKS he's a cop, and desperately WANTS to be one, but usually too stupid to actually make the force.

zengrifter said:

Don't call anyone.
Just know that you can return and play without fear at a later date. zg

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Agreed. Don't return there this trip.