CSM's - maybe beatable

B

bigbjfan

Well-Known Member
I have read all I could find on how the current CSM's work. My conclusion was that the cards inserted back are shuffled and then placed at the back of the internal "shoe". I see no way that cards can appear in the next hand like advertised. The casino closest to me uses CSM's exclusively that holds 5 decks. I went there the other night to test my theory out by backcounting for a couple hours using the KO. What I found was very interesting. Being the cards are continuously added to an internal shoe, my thoughts were to count down 5 decks in full. I would find a table with 4-5 players that I thought would stay for 5 decks worth hands and start counting. I counted about 10 shoes that night at many different tables and my findings were encouraging. I noticed that in 7-8 of those shoes, the count would go up after about 2.5 decks and would hit the KC about 3/4 way into the 5 decks. Then, in the next hands, the 10's and Aces would appear in numbers! One hand during a high count, the 5 players and dealer got all tens and aces! These findings told me that there were some serious low and high clumping going on with all the shoes at around the same penetration depths and I don't think that was coincidental. I didn't play that night so I haven't tested out my findings yet but I will soon. I may be crazy but these CSM's may be beatable. Curious to hear responses.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
bigbjfan said:
I have read all I could find on how the current CSM's work. My conclusion was that the cards inserted back are shuffled and then placed at the back of the internal "shoe". I see no way that cards can appear in the next hand like advertised. The casino closest to me uses CSM's exclusively that holds 5 decks. I went there the other night to test my theory out by backcounting for a couple hours using the KO. What I found was very interesting. Being the cards are continuously added to an internal shoe, my thoughts were to count down 5 decks in full. I would find a table with 4-5 players that I thought would stay for 5 decks worth hands and start counting. I counted about 10 shoes that night at many different tables and my findings were encouraging. I noticed that in 7-8 of those shoes, the count would go up after about 2.5 decks and would hit the KC about 3/4 way into the 5 decks. Then, in the next hands, the 10's and Aces would appear in numbers! One hand during a high count, the 5 players and dealer got all tens and aces! These findings told me that there were some serious low and high clumping going on with all the shoes at around the same penetration depths and I don't think that was coincidental. I didn't play that night so I haven't tested out my findings yet but I will soon. I may be crazy but these CSM's may be beatable. Curious to hear responses.
Click to expand...
What brand machine was it - King or Shuffle Master, or? zg
 
B

bigbjfan

Well-Known Member
The CSM's were the King model. I know 10 shoes are not enough to go and throw large amounts of $$$$ at, but from what I saw, it is enough for me to try to wong in with reds and see how I do.
 
A

avs21

Well-Known Member
I have seen that happen before, but I think the CSM was malfunctioning they ended up taking the cards out and started to hand shuffle the cards then put them back int CSM.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
bigbjfan said:
The CSM's were the King model. I know 10 shoes are not enough to go and throw large amounts of $$$$ at, but from what I saw, it is enough for me to try to wong in with reds and see how I do.
Click to expand...
No, its not enough. You need a lot more observation. zg
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
bigbjfan said:
My conclusion was that the cards inserted back are shuffled and then placed at the back of the internal "shoe". I see no way that cards can appear in the next hand like advertised.
Click to expand...
That is not accurate. The cards are mixed throught the shoe, not just placed in the back. In many models there isn't even a "shoe" per se. The cards are held in a ferris wheel-like device that deals out cards from random segments. Different models will have different internal mechanics, but none of them will place the cards at the back. These machines are designed to allow newly inserted cards to be immediately ready for the next hand. The best way to determine the latency of redistribution is by analyzing many hours of observation with a chi-squared test (described in Get The Edge at BJ).

Check out this link for some more info on CSMs:

http://www.borisbj21.com/Page28/page28.html

A word of warning though - DON'T LISTEN TO THE PLAYING ADVICE AT THE ABOVE WEBSITE! The guy knows a lot about CSMs but has a lot to learn about blackjack. Use the site above for CSM info only!

Also, check out this thread from January:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2312

-Sonny-
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
Sonny is correct

If you observe them opening one of these gizmos and trying to fix it, a ferris wheel spinning a taking a card from here and there is a perfect explaination.

ihate17
 
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