True Count Conversions and Card Thickness

Hey guys, it has been a while since I've really looked at the boards but I've been practicing. I'm a BS feind, I'm able to keep a running count (albeit slowly) using hi-lo. My question is in the True Count Conversion. Not how, I've got that, actually in how to practice identifying the number of decks left in the shoe. Any advice or thoughts, particularly in the size of cards? That is, are casino cards thicker than home bought bicycles (or any brand for that matter). Would it not be a bad investment to hunt down actual casino cards to practice this with or would grocery store cards do fine?

Thanks for the info.

kender said:

Hey guys, it has been a while since I've really looked at the boards but I've been practicing. I'm a BS feind, I'm able to keep a running count (albeit slowly) using hi-lo. My question is in the True Count Conversion. Not how, I've got that, actually in how to practice identifying the number of decks left in the shoe. Any advice or thoughts, particularly in the size of cards? That is, are casino cards thicker than home bought bicycles (or any brand for that matter). Would it not be a bad investment to hunt down actual casino cards to practice this with or would grocery store cards do fine?

Thanks for the info.

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I use Casino Verite software to practice deck estimation and true count conversion. It lets you choose from lots of different types of cards and card thicknesses. It is pretty expensive though ($90). There might be cheaper software out there that does the same thing.

Check out gamblers supply in Vegas or online. You can buy decks of used casino cards for about a buck a pack. Get six decks ( or however many you play with) shuffle them up and number them 1 on the bottom to 312 on top.Put them in a discard tray and start cutting 1, 1 1/2, 2, deck etc.See how close you are. Buy another 24 decks of cards and put them in stacks of 1/2, 1, 1 1/2 decks etc. up to 4 1/2 decks high, and look at them. The reason I go to 4 1/2 decks is thats the usual cutoff. Put these stacks in a dicard tray and look at them. It's all in calibrating your eyes. Casino Verite is a great investment for practice ,but I find using the real thing much better for card estimation. If you play mostly 2 deck games. try to get good at 1/4 deck estimation. Get Blackbelt in blackjack by Arnold Snyder. I just took a look around the house and it looks like I got about 60 decks of cards hanging around. Good luck
Vytas

The way I do it is with the discards. Picture what the discard rack looks like when full, and compare the cards in there to that image, rounding up to consider the cards on the table. It's better than looking at the cards in the shoe because they are always at an angle and sometimes laying in there funny.

i have several stacks of cards that i leave laying around places in my home where i spend a lot of time. i have them stacked by:
1 deck
2 decks
3 decks
4 decks
i just look at them from time to time and imagine that they are sitting in the discard tray. when i look at them i think to myself what number i'd be dividing the running count by if i saw that stack in the discard tray.

best regards,
mr fr0g

right, but.....

I plan to look at the discard tray for estimation, always have. I also plan to practice this step with real cards. I buy a bunch of decks and split them into 1/2 deck, 1 deck, 1 1/2 decks and so on, I will then stare at these for estimating. That was already my plan.

My question was, do actual casino cards differ in thickness to your common grocery store bicycle deck fo cards? Would it serve me well to find old casino cards or will my deck estimations not be hurt by practicing with run of the mill grocery store cards?

Thanks again.

kender said:

My question was, do actual casino cards differ in thickness to your common grocery store bicycle deck fo cards? Would it serve me well to find old casino cards or will my deck estimations not be hurt by practicing with run of the mill grocery store cards?

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The casino cards will be different than standard bicycle cards. Casinos usually use Paulson or Gemaco brand (or similar) cards which are very high quality and tend to be thinner than generic low-quality (sometimes unsealed) grocery store cards. All cards will start to swell after they have been used due to bends, warps and moisture. However, I don’t think the differences will be enough to affect your TC conversion. Most players use full-deck resolution anyway so the difference of even a few centimeters will not make a difference for most players.

On the other hand, casino cards (used) are often much cheaper than a new deck of poor-quality cards. You can often find casino cards for $1/pack or less in gift shops or on eBay.

-Sonny-

Thanks sonny

I appreciate all the help guys. This site is really helpful.

At every shop close to my house they sell used casino cards for $3 a pack and they sell cheap quality cards for less than $1 a pack. They also sell Bicycle/Bee cards for the same price as used casino cards >.<

hi kender

why not use an unbalanced count like ko or kiss III then you don't have to hassle a conversion.

When I started to learn to do the true count I was using used casino cards. As stated above you can get them for about a buck a pack. I started by using a cut card to cut off a full deck of a 6 deck shoe.. Count them out to see how far I was off. During practice, I would use this same method yet putting the cut card into what I thought was 1 deck in the discard tray. Over time I got very good at this. Then went to half decks then to qtr decks.. It came quite quickly to be honest, one of the easier parts of learning to count.

mdlbj said:

When I started to learn to do the true count I was using used casino cards. As stated above you can get them for about a buck a pack. I started by using a cut card to cut off a full deck of a 6 deck shoe.. Count them out to see how far I was off. During practice, I would use this same method yet putting the cut card into what I thought was 1 deck in the discard tray. Over time I got very good at this. Then went to half decks then to qtr decks.. It came quite quickly to be honest, one of the easier parts of learning to count.

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thats a good method IMHO. the only thing i'd change would be instead of counting the cards to see if you got it right you could just take that portion of the cards and place it side by side with a known portion. that would save your having to count them.
or probably better do like Vytas said and number the cards 1 to 312 then you'd know exactly.

sagefr0g said:

thats a good method IMHO. the only thing i'd change would be instead of counting the cards to see if you got it right you could just take that portion of the cards and place it side by side with a known portion. that would save your having to count them.
or probably better do like Vytas said and number the cards 1 to 312 then you'd know exactly.

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That works!! Or use whiteout and dot the discard tray at 1/4 deck increments.

Whatever works.. Just practice practice!!

I'm glad my old post is revived, but....

That was a while ago when I asked for that advice. I hope it helps someone as it helped me. I got an A$$load of used casino cards for super cheap online (they were quite a bit thinner than my grocery store cards--although, maybe not significantly for deck estimations). Numbered them like Vytas said, and am now pretty good at TC conversions. Thanks guys.

kender said:

That was a while ago when I asked for that advice. I hope it helps someone as it helped me. I got an A$$load of used casino cards for super cheap online (they were quite a bit thinner than my grocery store cards--although, maybe not significantly for deck estimations). Numbered them like Vytas said, and am now pretty good at TC conversions. Thanks guys.

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do you still have the link for the online store?

im reviving this thread because i searched google for an hour and couldnt find info on exactly how thick casino cards usually are.. 15.15mm for 52 cards (less than 5/8 of an inch) is how thick your standard deck of bicycle rider back cards are.. i need this information so i can make my own little ruler so when i sit at third base i can just put it up against the discard tray and know how many decks have been playing (the casino seriously doesnt care, especially since i dont bet more than $10).. i have a ruler that has 5/8 increments, but i want to be exact just because im weird like that.. does anybody have any info on this?

i found this.. (Dead link: http://www.averagejoeblackjack.com/estimatingdecks.html)

SilentBob420BMFJ said:

im reviving this thread because i searched google for an hour and couldnt find info on exactly how thick casino cards usually are.. 15.15mm for 52 cards (less than 5/8 of an inch) is how thick your standard deck of bicycle rider back cards are.. i need this information so i can make my own little ruler so when i sit at third base i can just put it up against the discard tray and know how many decks have been playing (the casino seriously doesnt care, especially since i dont bet more than $10).. i have a ruler that has 5/8 increments, but i want to be exact just because im weird like that.. does anybody have any info on this?

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I've never seen a ruler with 5/8 increments. Must be one special ruler.

If u want to be exact to know how many decks have been dealt, just count how many cards have been placed in discard tray.

Otherwise, in the meantime, make up an 8-inch ruler that has increments of 1/10000ths of a meter so that, by like actually wasting money actually buying an actual deck used in a casino, rather than relying on a potentially inaccurate estimate from a poster here, well, it wouldn't be a waste of money, just a cost that will be re-couped many times over over time from the knowledge gained by such expenditure, once u have ur answer of how many millimeters a casino card takes up compared to a bicycle card and, after adjusting in millimeters for the average height any cards that may have been slightly bent during play may use thus taking up more space, so that u can now put ur 250 millimeter ruler up to the discard tray while sitting at third base (the casino seriously won't care since ur only betting $10) so that u can now know that ur True Count divisor is 117/416 based on the Running Count after u have converted back from millimeters to number of cards, so that u can now adjust, what appears to be, from what u have said, a constant flat bet anyway due to ur inadequate bankroll in the first place, and, really, you should be just fine.

And I thought William Faulkner had run-on sentences.

SB,
There's no real purpose to doing this for several reasons. Firstly casino cards are not a standard thickness. It varys from casino to casino depending on the make of card they use, the quality of cards and even the humidity on the day - although this last one is completely unimportant for card counters and it's even dubieous whether it make that much of a difference for even the most accurate of techniques. The first to (make and quality) can actually affect a 6 deck stack by up to 1/2 a deck, so as you can see, you're not going to get a ruler that is going to be accurate for this purpose unless you only play in one casino and manage to get hold of a set of their playing cards (check the gift shops or online).
By the sounds of it you are looking to estimate to the nearest deck? Am i wrong about that? The most accurate that you'll ever need to be for the purposes of counting is 1/4 deck incriments and a lot of counters don't feel the need to be even that accurate.
As to using a ruler in casino play, it's a hell of a risk IMHO. I know you say that they don't care because you play so small, but if they ever did decide that they weren't happy with you, the ruler could be construed as a 'device' and cause you several legal problems. In a issue i'd want to involve myself with.

RJT.

Bob,
What you should do is purchase a machinist's micrometer or caliper. Go to the pit and ask to borrow a fresh deck. Measure them. Then, as you're playing, every now and then, ask to measure the cards in the discard tray. SHouldn't be a problem. People do it all the time.



























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