Casino cheating ?

So I'm convinced I got cheated at Foxwoods the other day . I was playing basic strategy flawless at 1 table for 10 hours flat betting $15 with a $400 bankroll. I was up and down between - $150 and + $250 . At 2:30 am the pit boss came over and closed the table . He said if any of us wanted to play we could continue at a specific table in front of were we were playing . I go to that table up $175 and the dealer beat me for $500 dollars in 1 shoe . What are the odd's of that ? 35 x the table minimum in 1 shoe ?

If the casino didn't care what cards we were playing with then why change tables ? They could easily bring the new dealer to the table we were all comfortable with . The 2 tables are so close to each other . After I left the table I watched person after person get wiped out there .

How long have you been playing? Sounds like you are not very seasoned in real casino play.

Playing BS,even flawlessly,after ten hours of betting $15,you should have been down about $125-150.So,when you sat at that last table,you were about $300 ahead of where you should have been. Were you cheating? Of course not. Its just BJ is a game with wilkd swings and you experianced both a positive swing and left on a negative swing.Your risk of being wiped out betting $15 with a $400 bankroll was extremely high. You should be happy you managed to last ten hours.

I'm afraid the mistake was yours.

xfiles said:

So I'm convinced I got cheated at Foxwoods the other day . I was playing basic strategy flawless at 1 table for 10 hours flat betting $15 with a $400 bankroll. I was up and down between - $150 and + $250 . At 2:30 am the pit boss came over and closed the table . He said if any of us wanted to play we could continue at a specific table in front of were we were playing . I go to that table up $175 and the dealer beat me for $500 dollars in 1 shoe . What are the odd's of that ? 35 x the table minimum in 1 shoe ?

If the casino didn't care what cards we were playing with then why change tables ? They could easily bring the new dealer to the table we were all comfortable with . The 2 tables are so close to each other . After I left the table I watched person after person get wiped out there .

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You were up $25 per hour for ten hours which is a good win for flat betting $15 per hand. You need to work on having a realistic expectation for a $400 bankroll. We've all done it, just try not to make that mistake again. Realisticly you should have be down 5 units of $15 or $75 in total for 10 hours of play.

xfiles said:

If the casino didn't care what cards we were playing with then why change tables ? They could easily bring the new dealer to the table we were all comfortable with . The 2 tables are so close to each other . After I left the table I watched person after person get wiped out there .

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I'll leave the math for the others, but as far as the above goes, they were probably consolidating tables. If they have two tables open, they have to pay two dealers. If they mash two tables together, they only pay one dealer. Along the same lines, they might have needed the dealer on another table. Put two blackjacks into one, put the other dealer into the Poker area which might have been busier. More likely, it was a scheduled closure. Most casinos will plan to only have X tables open during certain times, especially off times. It MIGHT get busy, but 99% of the time they only need X tables open. The duty roster probably said "close table X".

I doubt the casino would cheat you for $500. Think about how much they stand to lose if they were caught. Casino-as-cheaters are just like casin-players-as-cheaters. The more you cheat, the more your likelyhood of getting caught approaches 1. If a casino cheats, they stand to lose millions of dollars to fines, lost revenue, reputation damage, lawsuites, etc. Think about the EV of such a move. EV = $500 * likeyhood of gettingaway with it - $5,000,000 * likelyhood of getting caught. With numbers like that, even if they get caught .001% of the time, it's a breakeven deal. Go ahead and run a crooked homegame, with free alcohol. See if you can deal 100,000 crooked hands without getting caught once.

If you want your revenge, learn to count, and start playing with an advantage. =)

Or pee on a CSM.

I also recommend peeing on a CSM.

Were you playing heads-up?

The most ridiculous streak I noticed was playing heads up, and in two shoes, I won $300, flat betting $10. This is in the neighborhood of what you experienced.

If you were playing at a full table, it would be less likely to go on such a big losing streak, just because you would have played fewer hands.

Casino Cheating?

Do you think the casino replaced a few high cards with low cards? Possible but highy unlikely because someone would have had to switch the cards. Has anyone in the forum ever heard of this happening in their entire blackjack careers?

They could have used a "mechanic", a cheating dealer that can see the next card and if it is low, they give it to you and if it is high, they give you the next one instead.

jimpenn said:

Do you think the casino replaced a few high cards with low cards? Possible but highy unlikely because someone would have had to switch the cards. Has anyone in the forum ever heard of this happening in their entire blackjack careers?

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That's what I was thinking . Either that or shuffling a good dealer deck so it stays the same . The dealer/shuffler seemed very fast and experienced . If David Blane can make ace cards come out of someone's ass then the possibilities are endless .

I know I should have lost that money in 10 hours of play but I lost it in 20 minutes . I thought the odds of that were very low !

xfiles said:

That's what I was thinking . Either that or shuffling a good dealer deck so it stays the same . The dealer/shuffler seemed very fast and experienced . If David Blane can make ace cards come out of someone's ass then the possibilities are endless .

I know I should have lost that money in 10 hours of play but I lost it in 20 minutes . I thought the odds of that were very low !

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Even if you know that the game is fair, you will still have unbelievable losing sessions every once in a while. It sucks, but it just happens... even to professionals.

supercoolmancool said:

They could have used a "mechanic", a cheating dealer that can see the next card and if it is low, they give it to you and if it is high, they give you the next one instead.

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Yes , The dealer was very fast and I believe capable . The only time I started winning again was when they brought an inexperienced dealer in for 10 hands or so . The pit boss was standing over him the whole time then he was gone. I just thought I was all very strange .

The odds of losing that much in one shoe are very low. It doesn't matter how much you played before. Your expectation on that shoe was off more than one standard deviation I'm guessing. Most people suggest not to take any action other than to just avoid that casino.

ScottH said:

Even if you know that the game is fair, you will still have unbelievable losing sessions every once in a while. It sucks, but it just happens... even to professionals.

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Scott you ALWAYS say that. It's responses like that that allow casino cheating to continue. Not that I have any idea if casinos cheat but they could if everyone thought like you. You are creating a casino cheater's paradise.

supercoolmancool said:

Scott you ALWAYS say that. It's responses like that that allow casino cheating to continue. Not that I have any idea if casinos cheat but they could if everyone thought like you. You are creating a casino cheater's paradise.

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I think it's more likely that variance is at work than cheating. This is true in almost all of these cases I bet. When you lose big, it has to be cheating right? Probably not.

I am well-versed in cheating, as well as casino cheating. I know ways to tell if I am being cheated, so it would take a very skilled dealer to be able to get away with it for long. If I had a ridiculous losing session with the same dealer all the time I would watch them much more carefully from then on.

So I do advise that you should be aware of ways you could be cheated, but I believe that almost all posts like this are due to variance, and not cheating.

supercoolmancool said:

Scott you ALWAYS say that. It's responses like that that allow casino cheating to continue. Not that I have any idea if casinos cheat but they could if everyone thought like you. You are creating a casino cheater's paradise.

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Not speaking for everyone else but I don't think there's much I could do . The realization that it's very possible is a good lesson . I know I'll try not to play any new after hours tables . As far as avoiding the casino I can only play at foxwoods or mohegan sun .

I knew the dealer was dealing way to fast but I didn't want to be intimidated . I thought that as long as I made the correct moves I would be alright .

Actually you probably weren't cheated. I wouldn't change anything but just keep alert.

ScottH said:

I think it's more likely that variance is at work than cheating. This is true in almost all of these cases I bet. When you lose big, it has to be cheating right? Probably not.

I am well-versed in cheating, as well as casino cheating. I know ways to tell if I am being cheated, so it would take a very skilled dealer to be able to get away with it for long. If I had a ridiculous losing session with the same dealer all the time I would watch them much more carefully from then on.

So I do advise that you should be aware of ways you could be cheated, but I believe that almost all posts like this are due to variance, and not cheating.

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Isn't that variance way to high to be a coincidence with the circumstances I gave .

How do you think you were cheated? Somehow the cards were prearranged in the shoe? If you think this is the case try one of two things, leave or play two hands. If the cards were actually prearranged they probably didn't take into account you would start playing two hands at some point!

xfiles said:

Isn't that variance way to high to be a coincidence with the circumstances I gave .

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Were you flat-betting or spreading your bets? What were you betting? How many hands did you play?

It sounds very unlikely sure, but of all the thousands of gamblers in vegas at this moment, it is actually quite likely that one of them is going through what you just went through. So for you individually, it is quite rare for this to happen, but out of all the gamblers in vegas, it is not that uncommon. You just happened to be the poor guy that had the terrible run.

If you want to check, you can watch the dealer in question without even playing. It wont cost you anymore more money to investigate, just watch him deal and see how everyone does.

On another note , I sat down at the next table with my last $75 . The dealer gave all 3 players and himself a 10-4 . Then on the next hand 2 more 10-4's . 6 out of 8 hands were a 10-4 . What's up with that !