Real Pros?

I was wondering what constitutes being a professional advantage player. Do you have to do it as your profession or can you just approach it as if it was? Also how do you get into the circles of pro players? It seems as if they may have more info on the game than others but don't openly share it with just anybody. I'm not ready to join the ranks of the greats anytime soon, I'm just curious if I ever am, could I get in with the real pros to share in some privledged information. Or is that just a myth that the pros have more info than the rest of us?

JoeV said:

I was wondering what constitutes being a professional advantage player. Do you have to do it as your profession or can you just approach it as if it was?

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What kind of question is this? Yes, a professional advantage player is by definition someone who does it for a living. You could ask the same question about professional baseball players.

Also how do you get into the circles of pro players? It seems as if they may have more info on the game than others but don't openly share it with just anybody. I'm not ready to join the ranks of the greats anytime soon, I'm just curious if I ever am, could I get in with the real pros to share in some privledged information. Or is that just a myth that the pros have more info than the rest of us?

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Yes, we have more information than the non-professionals. There are many roads to tap into this information but, generally speaking, it will require that you be competent and deserving.

Craps Master said:

What kind of question is this? Yes, a professional advantage player is by definition someone who does it for a living. You could ask the same question about professional baseball players.


Yes, we have more information than the non-professionals. There are many roads to tap into this information but, generally speaking, it will require that you be competent and deserving.

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Actually by definition a professional is someone who gets paid to do something. Thats why there is a difference between amateur and pro athletes. So technically if you make any money playing blackjack you could be called a professional. I realize it would be unrealistic to say you are a professional if you're a red chip bettor but thats why I asked the question. At what point would the money being made qualify as a professional level? Or maybe that doesn't matter. Also you say there are roads to tap into for inside info if you are deserving, but who's to judge. Its not like pros are holding tryouts to join their circle? What if you are very skilled but maybe have a limited bankroll. How does someone earn notice as a deserving player to get the inside track on professional extras?

JoeV said:

Actually by definition a professional is someone who gets paid to do something. Thats why there is a difference between amateur and pro athletes. So technically if you make any money playing blackjack you could be called a professional.

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Technicalities don't get you the money. I think we all know what a professional is (at least professionals know) and what an amateur or enthusiast or recreational player is. A professional does it for a living, and at a skill level far beyond that of the recreational player.

I realize it would be unrealistic to say you are a professional if you're a red chip bettor but thats why I asked the question. At what point would the money being made qualify as a professional level? Or maybe that doesn't matter. Also you say there are roads to tap into for inside info if you are deserving, but who's to judge. Its not like pros are holding tryouts to join their circle? What if you are very skilled but maybe have a limited bankroll. How does someone earn notice as a deserving player to get the inside track on professional extras?

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Until you learn to ask the right questions, you will never be playing at the highest levels.

JoeV said:

I was wondering what constitutes being a professional advantage player.

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From the evidence we have seen thus far; those that call themselves pro APs are:
Now the actual definition is, as pointed out by JoeV, someone that gets paid to do something. I'm OK with the thousand year old definition. And, I don't think it matters at all what label you place upon yourself. Define your own goals. I suggest you ignore those that try to put themselves above you with self-defined labels.

I was going to say "nihilist egoists", but that works too.

I think advantage play needs a bit of a more stringent usage when talking about "professionals". For instance, I just took some glass bottles to recycling and got a couple bucks, does that mean I'm a professional recycler? If you asked the homeless guys in line, the answer is "no". Colloquially, I'd say that advantage play needs to be a primary source of income for you to count as a pro.

And yes, pros do have more information. Especially something like holecarding, where it seems the bulk of the work goes into finding and tracking flashing dealers. Once you finally get to the right table at the right time, it seems that any trained chimp could handle playing it.

There are other examples from the past of information that started out "secret" among the pros that developed it and only gradually became common knowledge. Ranging from card-counting itself (prior to 1961), to shuffle-tracking, ace-sequencing, depth-charging... and then there's the talk of countermeasuring Mindplay and CSMs, which I've only heard talk about, and know little of the details.

EasyRhino said:

And yes, pros do have more information. Especially something like holecarding, where it seems the bulk of the work goes into finding and tracking flashing dealers. Once you finally get to the right table at the right time, it seems that any trained chimp could handle playing it.

There are other examples from the past of information that started out "secret" among the pros that developed it and only gradually became common knowledge. Ranging from card-counting itself (prior to 1961), to shuffle-tracking, ace-sequencing, depth-charging... and then there's the talk of countermeasuring Mindplay and CSMs, which I've only heard talk about, and know little of the details.

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Well, I can tell a professional player didn't write the above. Hey, QFIT, when you want to go around talking about information that's dangerous to new players, you need look no further than EasyRhino's post. Depth-charging as a "secret" professional technique? Countermeasuring Mindplay and CSMs as professional techniques? Hole-carding being so simple a chimp could do it? Give me a break. These are the kinds of ideas that cost people money, and the way they are being name-dropped by someone who has obviously never done any of them is a clear indicator of amateurishness.

I have come to the conclusion that the casinos know all these "secrets." The nasty folk that pop up now and again trashing absolutely everyone don't post info because they don't want other players to know anything. They wish to chase their competitors out of the casinos with misleading info. If these silly posts continue; I'm going to start publishing pamphlets that explain in detail how to frontload, spook, nextcard, backcard, edgeplay, track, sequence, etc. This will render such disgusting posts moot.

QFIT said:

I have come to the conclusion that the casinos know all these "secrets." The nasty folk that pop up now and again trashing absolutely everyone don't post info because they don't want other players to know anything. They wish to chase their competitors out of the casinos with misleading info. If these silly posts continue; I'm going to start publishing pamphlets that explain in detail how to frontload, spook, nextcard, backcard, track, sequence, etc. This will render such disgusting posts moot.

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LOL, it took you ten minutes to compose this post? Impressive.

Why don't you go ahead and make good on what must be the emptiest threat I've ever seen posted on the internet. You don't know how to play cards professionally. You've never sequenced, you've never played against a flasher, you've never spooked, you've never caught the next card, you've never steered, and, from everything I've heard, you count cards for red chips. I'm sure your information will be about as damaging to the professional community and as groundbreaking as Mason Malmuth's chapter on frontloading in Blackjack Essays. That's if anybody reads your pamphlets, which they won't. As for what casinos know... as it impossible as it seems, they actually know even less than you or anyone else on this website.

So please, publish away. I could use a good laugh.

Craps Master/Stalker/LVHLM/wathever... can you tell me why you continue to post here if you hate everyone and everyone hates you? If you think only idiots who can't play blackjack post in these forums, then do yourself a favor and stop reading them.

Craps Master/Stalker/LVHLM/wathever... can you tell me why you continue to post here if you hate everyone and everyone hates you? If you think only idiots who can't play blackjack post in these forums, then do yourself a favor and stop reading them.

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I'm going to refrain from answering this as I must presume that it is beyond the capability of your intellect to grasp the answer. I can only suggest that you try your hardest to benefit from my my posts; it is surely a stroke of positive variance for you that I'm here.

Craps Master said:

LOL, it took you ten minutes to compose this post? Impressive.

Why don't you go ahead and make good on what must be the emptiest threat I've ever seen posted on the internet. You don't know how to play cards professionally. You've never sequenced, you've never played against a flasher, you've never spooked, you've never caught the next card, you've never steered, and, from everything I've heard, you count cards for red chips. I'm sure your information will be about as damaging to the professional community and as groundbreaking as Mason Malmuth's chapter on frontloading in Blackjack Essays. That's if anybody reads your pamphlets, which they won't. As for what casinos know... as it impossible as it seems, they actually know even less than you or anyone else on this website.

So please, publish away. I could use a good laugh.

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Great, I have LVHCM permission. I will create these pamphlets. Actually, I've been planning three for some time now.

QFIT said:

Great, I have LVHCM permission. I will create these pamphlets. Actually, I've been planning three for some time now.

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I'm sure that at some point in your life, you also planned on writing a decent piece of software for card counting practice and analysis. That never panned out, I guess. Better luck with your pamphlets, though I won't be holding my breath for you to produce anything remotely good.

Craps Master said:

I'm sure that at some point in your life, you also planned on writing a decent piece of software for card counting practice and analysis. That never panned out, I guess. Better luck with your pamphlets, though I won't be holding my breath for you to produce anything remotely good.

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Hmm Bryce Carlson, MIT Mike, Semyon Dukach, Arnold Snyder, Ken Smith, Donald Schlesinger, Kevin Blackwood, Michael Dalton, Ralph Stricker, Rick Blaine, George C., Anthony Curtis, Ian Andersen say it's the best BJ software.

Craps Master says it's worthless.

Think I'll use this in my advertisements.

Don't feed the trolls. :whip:
peace,
harpo.

QFIT said:

Craps Master says it's worthless.

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That's right. You can make appeals to social proof all day long; it's not going to impress me, and it shouldn't impress anyone with even a modicum of sense either. The fact is your software is just not very good. Actual professional counters don't waste their time with it, regardless of whether hacks like Semyon Dukach and Don Schlesinger say it's the best software. Needless to say, neither does anyone who does anything more advanced than counting. An aspiring professional is better saving himself the expense.

Are Don and Semyon also going to tell us your pamphlets are the best pamphlets about hole carding, sequencing, next carding, and all the other stuff you have no idea how to do?

QFIT said:

I'm going to start publishing pamphlets that explain in detail how to frontload, spook, nextcard, backcard, edgeplay, track, sequence, etc.

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Suggestion: Make them the same size so that they'll fit in the pamphlet-holders at tables that are usually filled with a primer on basic blackjack rules, or explanation of the side game du jour. Then players can just go all Johnny Appleseed, insert in the spooking pamphlets, and see how long it takes until anyone notices.

harpomarks said:

Don't feed the trolls. :whip:
peace,
harpo.

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Don't learn to think outside the realm of internet clichés. We wouldn't want you to broaden your perspective or anything radical like that.

EasyRhino said:

Suggestion: Make them the same size so that they'll fit in the pamphlet-holders at tables that are usually filled with a primer on basic blackjack rules, or explanation of the side game du jour. Then players can just go all Johnny Appleseed, insert in the spooking pamphlets, and see how long it takes until anyone notices.

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A long time. Consider how long you've been playing blackjack and how you've not yet managed to steer yourself an ace, spot a single hole card, or consistently play with a double-digit edge over the house for hours, days, weeks, or months on end. The moral of the story: people aren't very observant. And I'm just talking about how long it takes them to see the pamphlet sitting there in front of them, nevermind the impossibility of them ever actually putting the information -- and I use the term loosely, as it will be coming from the very definition of a questionable source, QFIT -- to use.

Craps Master said:

That's right. You can make appeals to social proof all day long; it's not going to impress me, and it shouldn't impress anyone with even a modicum of sense either. The fact is your software is just not very good. Actual professional counters don't waste their time with it, regardless of whether hacks like Semyon Dukach and Don Schlesinger say it's the best software. Needless to say, neither does anyone who does anything more advanced than counting. An aspiring professional is better saving himself the expense.

Are Don and Semyon also going to tell us your pamphlets are the best pamphlets about hole carding, sequencing, next carding, and all the other stuff you have no idea how to do?

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So, Arnold Snyder is a hack? Is there anyone other than yourself you think can play BJ?

No need to answer. You've reached my boredom level for the week.