Cardcounter can you call yourself an AP and call holecarders cheats?

If you go to the Las Vegas board and check the 6/5 thread, you will find that member Cardcounter, stated that holecarding was illegal and could result in your being jailed. He ignorantly lumped holecarders and cardmarkers together.

Knowing that he is a dealer in Tahoe who shills on this board about his casino, I should be able to understand that casino employee attitude that anyone who can beat them is a criminal but at the same time he claims to be an advantage player.

My reply to him is actually a lot milder than the mood I was in when I wrote it but think some others should chime in.

By the way, I have sucessfully holecarded in his casino. I wonder, could it have been?

ihate17:flame:

LOL you wish

I think if you hole card... its awesome. The main mistake I see is the dealer always drawing extra cards for the dealer hand (I blieve they are taught to always draw a 3rd card even if the hand doesn't require it, because it speeds up the play). I even play shuffle machines in the first square because of this, just up my bet if im going to get a ten or ace, very easy way to make money.

Maybe he's thinking of spooking. Which of course doesn't exist anymore.

ihate17 said:

If you go to the Las Vegas board and check the 6/5 thread, you will find that member Cardcounter, stated that holecarding was illegal and could result in your being jailed. He ignorantly lumped holecarders and cardmarkers together.

Knowing that he is a dealer in Tahoe who shills on this board about his casino, I should be able to understand that casino employee attitude that anyone who can beat them is a criminal but at the same time he claims to be an advantage player.

My reply to him is actually a lot milder than the mood I was in when I wrote it but think some others should chime in.

By the way, I have sucessfully holecarded in his casino. I wonder, could it have been?

ihate17:flame:

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Whatever it takes to make money from the casino is all good. Here is a true story that just happen to me. The dealer was weak (Brand New) I could tell. First time she has ace up check for BJ and exposes her card to me a 9 for a total of 20. I have a hard 17 so I draw and hit a 3 for 20. The table could not believe I hit it. The very next hand dealer has ace and checks for BJ and exposes her hole card which is a 9 again for a total of 20. This time I have a hard 18. So I hit it again and draw a 3 for a total of 21. The people at the table were in SHOCK and AWE. Those 2 plays cleared 2 of the people out at the table. So what would you have done? Stayed and lost you money. Those 2 hands were $150 a piece. Better money in my pocket then the casino. Honesty = a minus $300. Whatever it takes = a + 150.

I wouldn't have made either of those plays. I would have used her exposed card for insurance plays, and splits/doubles. The house will catch on quickly if you make blatant plays like that. But if you don't make it obvious, you could have had a 2-3% edge for weeks before they caught on.

man, those hits can sure draw some attention!

hitting hard 17 and 18 while holecarding

Split10 said:

man, those hits can sure draw some attention!

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In my experience I have found that there are situations where you can get away with hitting a hard 18 and get no attention but they are few and well over 90% of the time you are just better off taking your loss when you know the dealer has you beat. It is far more important to keep the advantage alive than to attempt to win every hand.

Now 17 is a little different. It is much easier to get away with and can be combined with a good act making you look like a desparate player who knows that the dealer has his 17 beat and that 17 really only wins the hand when the dealer busts. With a decent act, you can hit a hard 17 several times in a session and get away with it. It works best if early on you hit one and land up pulling out a lucky winner, then you can look like a lucky gambler who thinks he just might be able to do this often.

Funny story because it has to do with the casino where Cardcounter works. I had been playing their single deck against this weak dealer, I could read the guy nearly 100%, been playing perhaps 20 minutes, winning a bunch and now had my own personal pit type at the table. I know the dealer has 8,10 and I have a 3 card 17. I show my cards to my new companion, the pit, and tell him I know the dealer has got me beat, would you hit? Pit goes, "yeah, as lucky as you have been you will probably hit a 4." Take the pits advice but only hit an ace for a push. Unfortunately, as the cards fell on the next hand, had I taken the loss I would have landed up with blackjack, pit pointed that out to me with a self satisfying smile. Anyway, everytime (I got too many of them) I was dealt a 17 I would show it to the pit and everytime he wanted me to hit it. Of course I chose the times.

So where both may draw some attention to your play, it is like 90% vs 40% or something. 18 will get you heat 90% of the time but 17 will bring heat much less. Of course you still have a heavy edge if you just stay on each 17-19.
Finally, when holecarding, the insurance bet is a wonderful thing.

ihate17

moo321 said:

I wouldn't have made either of those plays. I would have used her exposed card for insurance plays, and splits/doubles. The house will catch on quickly if you make blatant plays like that. But if you don't make it obvious, you could have had a 2-3% edge for weeks before they caught on.

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These plays were made at the new MGM casino that just opened in Detroit.
You can get away with almost anything without drawing heat. I have seen bets go from 50 to 1000 without heat. No problem here. In fact I was one of the first to sit at a $50 to $1000 and the dealer ask the pit how deep to cut the cards, pit replied cut them 1 !/2 decks (6 DECK) better for the players. That is why I really don,t worry about heat. I have been around the 3 Detroit casino since the opened and extracted about $60,000 from them in the last 5 1/2 years. There are enough stupid players around here to make them enough money so they either look at you as just plain dumb or just lucky. In all this time a have NEVER run into a AP player here.

Ignoring my post

Since I began this thread, Cardcounter has posted to other threads but has chosen to ignore replying to me.

ihate17

No surprise there

ihate17 said:

Since I began this thread, Cardcounter has posted to other threads but has chosen to ignore replying to me.

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You know that as both LTC and CC he almost never replies to posts. He's off in his own little world. A world where he's head of marketing for Crystal Bay Club!

Ain't that the truth

Canceler said:

You know that as both LTC and CC he almost never replies to posts. He's off in his own little world. A world where he's head of marketing for Crystal Bay Club!

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Canceler
Actually he has done some Chamber of Commerce work for both Tahoe and Reno.:grin:
Still pissed at the guy. I do not like being called a cheat and when it comes from someone who considers himself an AP (of course I have doubts) it is worse. If I just look at him as a casino stiff, infiltrating the board with a bunch of nonesense, it is much easier to take.

ihate17

ihate17 said:

If I just look at him as a casino stiff, infiltrating the board with a bunch of nonesense, it is much easier to take.

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There ya go!

How can holecarding be considered cheating by any stretch of the imagination. It's not like you're using some sort of cheating device or marking cards. It's the house's game. If they don't train their dealers to protect their cards, the fault lies with the house, not the player who sees the dealer's mistakes. What are players supposed to do? Try not to look? lol Maybe you guys who hire a midget to play third base are walking the cheating/not cheating line, but that's another story. lol

Holecarding is cheating!

If you use a mirror or a shiner to be able to see the dealers hole card than I do consider it cheating. If you clude with the dealer to have him flash cards yes I consider that cheating to. As a dealer I have seen people naturally hit hard 17 and hard 18 however they are very rare players and they where done by regulars who I know they are bad players "good for the house."

Cardcounter said:

If you use a mirror or a shiner to be able to see the dealers hole card than I do consider it cheating. If you clude with the dealer to have him flash cards yes I consider that cheating to. As a dealer I have seen people naturally hit hard 17 and hard 18 however they are very rare players and they where done by regulars who I know they are bad players "good for the house."

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Don't you get it? ihate17 never mentioned to use a mirror or shiner or (for havens sake) to be in collusion with the dealer to get the holecard information. He knows the HC because of your inability as a dealer to deal the cards like you supposed to do! It's a skill to spot the dealer who flash's cards and to play him!
And for that you should show respect when you would be an AP!

Cardcounter said:

If you use a mirror or a shiner to be able to see the dealers hole card than I do consider it cheating. If you clude with the dealer to have him flash cards yes I consider that cheating to. As a dealer I have seen people naturally hit hard 17 and hard 18 however they are very rare players and they where done by regulars who I know they are bad players "good for the house."

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Using shiners and colluding are obviously cheating. Holecarding per se is not cheating, unless of course you use cheating devices or collusion. We can't go around making glittering generalizations, such as, "Holecarding is cheating." It simply isn't so.

I think the obvious response is to ensure you are not cluding with the dealer.

The ignorance goes on and on and on

Cardcounter said:

If you use a mirror or a shiner to be able to see the dealers hole card than I do consider it cheating. If you clude with the dealer to have him flash cards yes I consider that cheating to. As a dealer I have seen people naturally hit hard 17 and hard 18 however they are very rare players and they where done by regulars who I know they are bad players "good for the house."

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A shinner, something that I have never even thought of using, is used to get a view of the holecard when the dealer peeks for blackjack (how many houses even peek today?)
A holecarder will most often get a view of a pip before that holecard hits the felt and will know the hole card even when the dealer does not have a 10-A as an up card.

Now a shinner, as all of us know, is a device and is illegal because of that.
My eyes are not yet considered a device and that is all I use.
Interestingly, my eyes when used with the right dealer are more effective than a shinner. A shinner might pick up the hole card 5 of 13 times (10-A) but if I can read a dealer 70% of the time, we are talking 7 of 10 times.

ihate17

P.S. I sent a direct to Cardcounter, told him to check the law and then I wanted the owed apology. What I got back was this BS (BS does not mean basic strategy in this case), about shinners.

Holecarding is illegal. You cant reach across the table, lift the hole card up so you can see it. That's cheating!

[FONT=&quot]
As scienter or fraudulent intent is an element of cheating,[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][358][/FONT][/FONT] (Archive copy)[FONT=&quot]should the law criminalize activity where the player simply acts upon information exposed where he or she did not enter the casino with intent to fraudulently obtain and act on this information? The latter is the case where a typical player sitting at the table learns of the value of the dealer's hole card because the dealer makes an error in exposing the card.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Hole-carding professionals and teams are much different than where a player, without fraudulent intent, learns the dealer's hole card because of “a dealer's unintended revelation of his cards.”[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][359][/FONT][/FONT] (Archive copy)[FONT=&quot]Here, cheaters play the game with the intent of learning the dealer's hole card by undertaking some act to either learn the hole card where the dealer is properly protecting it or by using the hold card techniques that accentuate poor dealing. Note, for example, this quote from an interview with a hole carder:[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Therefore, attempting to acquire knowledge not typically or readily available to other players that provides an advantage in determining or predicting what was intended to be a random event should be illegal and unenforceable if the player uses any artificial or deliberate means to gain the advantage such as mirrors or spotters.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
An argument can be made that a typical player that learns of the dealer's hole card because of a dealer's error is no less of a thief than a person who cashes a $100 check and knowingly keeps the extra $900 when the bank clerk mistakes it for $1000. In theory, the player that uses such information forms a fraudulent intent when he or she uses the information to gain the advantage created by the mistake. Moreover, using a person's mistake to that person or his or her employer's disadvantage is unethical.[/FONT]