Discrepancy

I have noticed a difference in odds calculation over multiple websites. Primarily a comparison between some of the numbers on the Game Master Online's website and the Wizard of Odd's numbers. There is a discrepancy in the calculations regarding Early Surrender.

On the Game Master Online's website, it gives the following numbers for Early Surrender:

Early surrender vs 10 0nly +.30%
Early surrender vs. all +.70%

Here is the link: http://gamemasteronline.com/Archive/BlackjackSchool/GameMasterClassics11.shtml (Archive copy)

On the Wizard of Odd's website, it gives these numbers for Early Surrender:

The link: http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack

Early surrender against ten +0.24%
Early surrender against ace +0.39%
For a total of +0.63%

Now it appears that BlackJackInfo.com agrees with the Wizard of Odd's numbers. Choosing these rules on the Basic Strategy Engine gives me a house edge of -0.66%: 6 Decks, H17, DAS, No Surrender, Peek. For 6 Decks, H17, DAS, Early Surrender, Peek the Basic Strategy Engine gives me a house edge of -0.03%. That is a difference of +0.63%.

This confuses me... perhaps... no... perhaps... perhaps the Game Master really isn't the Game Master afterall... There is treachery afoot!

What do you guys think? How would they get different numbers?

Licentia.

They might be for different numbers of decks or different rules. According to Snyder, Early Surrender is worth .63% in a multi-deck S17 game, .72 in a multi-deck H17 game and .70 in a single-deck H17 game.

-Sonny-

Licentia said:

Early surrender against ten +0.24%
Early surrender against ace +0.39%
For a total of +0.63%

Now it appears that BlackJackInfo.com agrees with the Wizard of Odd's numbers. Choosing these rules on the Basic Strategy Engine gives me a house edge of -0.66%: 6 Decks, H17, DAS, No Surrender, Peek. For 6 Decks, H17, DAS, Early Surrender, Peek the Basic Strategy Engine gives me a house edge of -0.03%. That is a difference of +0.63%.

This confuses me... perhaps... no... perhaps... perhaps the Game Master really isn't the Game Master afterall... There is treachery afoot!

What do you guys think? How would they get different numbers?

Licentia.

Click to expand...

6D -.546
H17 -.215
DAS +.144
= -.617
ES +.715
= +.098

Do you actually know a casino dealing 6D, H17, DAS, and ES? You could beat that game with basic alone!

Licentia said:

What do you guys think? How would they get different numbers? Licentia.

Click to expand...

Like I think Sonny said they are just measuring the change of the rule relative to a certain game.

Like gamemaster a 6D NO DAS vs the Wiz 8D DAS game.

SystemsTrader said:

6D -.546
H17 -.215
DAS +.144
= -.617
ES +.715
= +.098

Do you actually know a casino dealing 6D, H17, DAS, and ES? You could beat that game with basic alone!

Click to expand...

According to the Basic Strategy Engine on the website here, it gives a .03% House Edge. Where do you get your numbers from?

Licentia said:

According to the Basic Strategy Engine on the website here, it gives a .03% House Edge. Where do you get your numbers from?

Click to expand...

The strategy engine here does say a house edge of .03%. The numbers I used are from Blackjack Attack and give the player a .09% edge over the house. A beatable game for the basic strategy player. Early surrender is a huge advantage for the player and no casino I know of in North America offers it. In Another post you mention a casino in Vancouver offering the 6D, H17, DAS and ES game. I called the only casino in Vancouver called Edgewater and if that is the casino you are talking about they do not offer early surrender but they do offer late surrender!

The Strategy Engine here uses a simple approach to estimating house edge, and it doesn't really capture all the interactions between rules. I'm sure some of the other sources are more accurate.

Improving that has long been on my wish list.

SystemsTrader said:

The strategy engine here does say a house edge of .03%. The numbers I used are from Blackjack Attack and give the player a .09% edge over the house. A beatable game for the basic strategy player. Early surrender is a huge advantage for the player and no casino I know of in North America offers it. In Another post you mention a casino in Vancouver offering the 6D, H17, DAS and ES game. I called the only casino in Vancouver called Edgewater and if that is the casino you are talking about they do not offer early surrender but they do offer late surrender!

Click to expand...

That's not the only Casino in Vancouver. There is one on West Broadway... A Casino without slots, just tables. Very small, in a hotel basement. There are other's around but whether they are in Vancouver or Richmond or Burnaby or whatever I don't know. I call the entire area Vancouver as do most people I think.

Look, Early Surrender occurs when you are playing a game without a hole card dealt to the Dealer, and you are able to Surrender your hand before the Dealer plays his hand. But only on the condition that the Dealer takes only your original bet. If the Dealer takes your entire bet then that is late Surrender. I have played other places where they only take your original bet, and if I am not mistaken, that is what I remember from playing at the EdgeWater Casino last year. But maybe I am mistaken. Next time I go there I will check this.

Licentia.

Licentia said:

But only on the condition that the Dealer takes only your original bet. If the Dealer takes your entire bet then that is late Surrender.

Click to expand...

But when you surrender, your original bet is your entire bet. You can't split or double after you surrender so there will not be any extra money in your spot. If you bet $20, surrender, then lose it all when the dealer gets a BJ then you are playing against late surrender. If the dealer gives you $10 back even after getting a BJ then you are playing early surrender.

-Sonny-

So if the EdgeWater really does take your entire bet, how would you calculate it using the Basic Strategy Engine? Would you select Early Surrender or Late Surrender? You would select 6 Decks, DAS, DA2, No Peek (European Style) but would you select Early or Late Surrender? I would think you could only select Early. I don't know how you could select either option yet the Strategy Engine does allow you to select either Early or Late. LOL! I guess that Basic Strategy Engine does need an update.

Licentia.

Early Surrender means you can surrender even if the dealer has a blackjack.
If you can't surrender your way out of a blackjack, it's late surrender.

For places that either don't deal a second dealer card or don't peek, you can still have a late surrender game. Some places will mark your 'surrendered' hand with a lammer, and only settle up after they don't end up with blackjack.

Sonny said:

But when you surrender, your original bet is your entire bet. You can't split or double after you surrender so there will not be any extra money in your spot. If you bet $20, surrender, then lose it all when the dealer gets a BJ then you are playing against late surrender. If the dealer gives you $10 back even after getting a BJ then you are playing early surrender.

-Sonny-

Click to expand...

When I say original bet that is before Double Downs or Splits. Say I bet $5 and I Double Down which is a total of $10 I bet. The Dealer has no hole card so I play my hand before he does. Then the Dealer gets a BJ and the Dealer takes the $5 I originally placed and leaves the other $5 on the playing circle. Yes, that is Early Surrender and I have played that many times.

One day not long ago, playing at an Early Surrender table, an idiot hypocrite ploppy who was complaining about everyone else's play doubled down a 12 vs a Dealer Ace. He busted for a 22. The Dealer took his entire bet and he said to the Dealer to put the money back because if she gets BJ she only takes half his bet. She put the bet back and played her hand. She didn't get a BJ and he lost it all. Early Surrender.

Licentia.

KenSmith said:

Early Surrender means you can surrender even if the dealer has a blackjack.
If you can't surrender your way out of a blackjack, it's late surrender.

For places that either don't deal a second dealer card or don't peek, you can still have a late surrender game. Some places will mark your 'surrendered' hand with a lammer, and only settle up after they don't end up with blackjack.

Click to expand...

Or they can just take your entire bet upon getting a BJ. Got it. I am thinking...

Maybe at the Edgewater they did give people a chip when they Surrendered...

Licentia.

Licentia said:

Say I bet $5 and I Double Down which is a total of $10 I bet...Then the Dealer gets a BJ and the Dealer takes the $5 I originally placed and leaves the other $5 on the playing circle. Yes, that is Early Surrender and I have played that many times.

Click to expand...

But that's not surrender at all. You doubled down, you didn't surrender. The difference between late surrender and early surrender has nothing to do with the hole card rules. I've seen late surrender on both peek and no-peek games.

-Sonny-

FWIW, I am not currently aware of any live games in the US that offer early surrender. There are some video blackjack games out there that do this, at least against a dealer ten.

By and large, for the vast majority of people in the world, if you are choosing 'Early Surrender' when creating a strategy at the Strategy Engine, it's a mistake, and you really mean Late Surrender.

KenSmith said:

FWIW, I am not currently aware of any live games in the US that offer early surrender. There are some video blackjack games out there that do this, at least against a dealer ten.

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The only time I've gotten ES, quite a bit, is with confused dealers when playing SF21. zg

Where I am, the Dealer does not deal himself a hole card. After you get your first two cards dealt, and before any player hits / etc.. you can call out Surrender against any card except for an Ace. You immediately get half of your bet back and your two cards that were dealt to you are removed from the table. Then each of the players will play out their hands, and then the dealer plays his hand. If the Dealer gets a BJ you have already surrendered and gotten half your money back. That is 100% Early Surrender against a 10. You can not Surrender in any manner against an Ace, neither early nor late.

I Surrender 16 vs 10; 15 vs 10; 14 vs 10; 8,8 vs 10; 7,7 vs 10; and 16 vs 9.

The rules are 6 Decks, DAS, DA2, No Ace Resplit, H17.

You are right Sonny, whether the Dealer takes half your Double Down or not is not related to Surrender. Sorry, my error.

Licentia.

I've heard of this ES against any card except an ace. I think that gives you something like +0.4% edge in your favor. Slightly better than LS but definitely not as good as true ES. I came across a place like that a long time ago, its not a bad rule but the fact that you can't surrender again the ace is unfortunate.

Licentia said:

Where I am, the Dealer does not deal himself a hole card. After you get your first two cards dealt, and before any player hits / etc.. you can call out Surrender against any card except for an Ace. You immediately get half of your bet back and your two cards that were dealt to you are removed from the table. Then each of the players will play out their hands, and then the dealer plays his hand. If the Dealer gets a BJ you have already surrendered and gotten half your money back. That is 100% Early Surrender against a 10. You can not Surrender in any manner against an Ace, neither early nor late.

I Surrender 16 vs 10; 15 vs 10; 14 vs 10; 8,8 vs 10; 7,7 vs 10; and 16 vs 9.

The rules are 6 Decks, DAS, DA2, No Ace Resplit, H17.

You are right Sonny, whether the Dealer takes half your Double Down or not is not related to Surrender. Sorry, my error.

Licentia.

Click to expand...

Let me get into this arguement if I may with all the big guns firing.

Friend, you must realise that you are playing the European BJ game which is played by everybody in the world outside the US including Canada.

As you described, the terms Early and Late Surrender are meaniless for this European game. This website strategy engine here is only correct for the American BJ game and cannot be applied to the European game.

What you have is Early Surrender against any card except the Ace and No Surrender against the Ace.

So what do you call this Surrender.

Let us not split hair and call it the "Licentia Surrender".