What Indices to Learn (an essay)

[cardcounter0]

What indices should I use?

First you learn these two. The two most valuable things you can learn. The rest are pocket change in comparison.

Insurance
16 vs T

Then what do you learn? The I18 by Don Schlesinger. Why? Because you cannot get your offical card counter membership card and decoder ring unless you have the I18 memorized as good as you have basic strategy down. When you know these next indices down pat, you will be told the secret handshake, and you will also be getting 80% of the profit possible using indexes:

15 vs T
T,T vs 5
T,T vs 6
10 vs T
12 vs 3
12 vs 2
11 vs A
9 vs 2
10 vs A
9 vs 7
16 vs 9
13 vs 2
12 vs 4
12 vs 5
12 vs 6
13 vs 3

What is next?

Well, now that you know T,T vs 5 and T,T vs 6 forget about them. Nothing will get you bounced as a card counter faster than splitting 10s. Instead add these indexes to your arsenal.

A,8 vs 6
A,8 vs 5
8 vs 6
8 vs 5

Now what?

Now? It doesn't matter. Stuff your head as full of nonsense as you want. Nothing else is worth even pennies on a hundred dollars.

But here are two tips:

Forget indices below -2. The correct play to make when the count is less than -2 is not to bet. Don't play. Sit out. Find another table. Go to the bathroom. Look for the cocktail waitress. Wait for the shuffle. Sit out a few hands. Did I mention don't play?

Forget indices above +6. Counts above +6 are so rare, you will forget the index before you will ever see the chance to use it. When the count is higher than +6, all that happens is you get 20, the dealer gets 20, or one of you have a blackjack, you don't need to do anything but bet big. 15 vs 7 never happens when the count is sky high (*see note).

(*note) The index is +10, at +10 or more it is better to stand rather than hit 15 vs 7
-- if you play every day for the rest of your life, knowing this 15 vs 7 @ +10 play will earn you enough extra money to buy a hot dog (unless you get extra cheese on the hot dog, this play will not win you enough extra money to afford that).

What should I do instead of learning more and more useless indices?

Does your game have surrender? You should learn these 4, right along with the first step of Insurance and 16 vs T and the original I18.

The Fab 4 surrender indices brought to you by Don Schlesinger who also coined the I18:

14 vs 10
15 vs 10
15 vs 9
15 vs Ace

Then take your 20 or 30 indices and learn which ones change when going from a S17 game to a H17 game. From double deck to 8 decks. Single deck. Double after split?

Or if you are still hell bent to learn a bunch of indices, realize there are a couple of COMPOSITION DEPENDENT ones. Sometimes the numbers change depending on what cards actually make up your 12 or 14. Split or not to Split? There are a couple for those too. Then start realizing how many 100s and 100s and 100s of hands you have to play to actually see two 3s against a dealer's 3! Of course when you finally do get 3,3 vs 3 the count won't be at the point to do anything but basic strat anyways.

In conclusion:
Learn the I18 (and Fab 4) like you know basic strat, then spend your time making money.

 

[kewljason]

excellent post cardcounter0. Was pretty much what I was trying to say in the "newb99 indices please thread". I just didnt have the brains to get my point across as well as you just did. good job!

also have noticed you referencing and quoting Don S. several times. I regret that he doesnt post here. I understand politics and history between some of the different long-termers and bruised ego and such, but truely feel as a community we all lose in those situations.

 

[Sonny]

Nice post! I've added it to the Frequently Asked Questions thread.

-Sonny-

 

[bjcount]

Nice post! I've added it to the Frequently Asked Questions thread.

-Sonny-

I agree that was nicely put. Wasn't there something like that in Don S's book, Blackjack Attack?
I just know I read that somewhere else.

There are still 50 indices I learned between +6 & -2, but I'll stay with all +80 as long as dimentia does not set in. Would you know, did the pro players and big winners only use I18 & F4, or are these more for the recreational players?

BJC

 

[Mimosine]

think that one thing could be done to help this thread is a proper discussion of surrender is warranted.

For perfect BS 16 v 9,10,A and 15 v 10 are correct moves.
Index plays should include 15 v 9,A; 14 v 10, and I believe 8,8 v 10.

The fab four has 15 v 10 as an index move, which I think is INCORRECT, that should be a BS move for both H17 and S17 games.

 

[cardcounter0]

The fab four has 15 v 10 as an index move, which I think is INCORRECT, that should be a BS move for both H17 and S17 games.

Basic strategy also says hit 16 vs T, however there is an index for standing (and a very profitable one, at that).

15 vs T basic strategy is surrender, however there is an index because sometimes it is better to hit.

8,8 vs T surrender is probably a good index to add, the reason it is not a part of the FAB 4 surrender indices is because of frequency. You will be getting 14 and 15 a lot more frequently than the specific 8,8 so that index loses overall value.

 

[cardcounter0]

Would you know, did the pro players and big winners only use I18 & F4, or are these more for the recreational players?

Don Schlesinger's book "Blackjack Attack" is subtitled "Playing the Pro's Way", if that tells you anything.

Before Don's work, Pros memorized the full set of indices and then when moving from game to game had 80 - 100 indices they had to juggle around to account for rule changes and the like. Recreational players probably used random ones.

One of the ground breaking things Don showed mathematically, was the value of 16 vs T. It isn't a very high value play, but it adds up because of the sheer frequency at which it occurs.

The next thing he showed was only 18 indices was giving the large majority of the value. A lot of the indices were just mental masturbation and not worth using. Only having to remember 18 numbers made moving from different game to different game easier, and you could relax knowing you were still getting 80% of the value, and concentrate on other more important things.

The only counter-argument that can be made is sometimes if you use a full set of indices, and throw in a little cover, you can sometimes throw off the pit because they think you do not even know basic strategy!
:eyepatch:

A recreational player can profit greatly from Don's work. You only have 20 plays you need to know to take advantage of using count based play departures. Secondly, if you only take insurance properly, and know when to stand on 16 vs T, those two simple things get you a big chunk of the money. A recreational player can do those two things, and add on more plays as he feels comfortable. (The I18 is presented in order of importance -- work your way down the list).

 

[zengrifter]

Now what?

Now? It doesn't matter. Stuff your head as full of nonsense as you want. Nothing else is worth even pennies on a hundred dollars.

I disagree. I think that the next 40 or so can add another 20%+/- relative gain. (ie, 1.5% edge becomes 1.8% edge). This little fraction increase can compound by playing longer sessions and by playing hands faster. See ZGI. zg

 

[blackjack avenger]

Okay, I Will Bite

First I want to say good job, one can tell it took some time. Now for some counter arguments for fun.:joker::whip:

Some counter arguments for more indices:

They actually do increase EV and decrease time to the long run, not a small consideration. Full indices for Hi Low can increase EV by 10% and decrease the long run by a similar amount. If you resize frequently this value is increased.

Sch. actually added to the Ill. 18. You did include the ones that make up the catch 22, fab 4 group.

You did mention that others can be effective for camo purposes.

To write off splitting 10s is expensive, though I can see your point. Perhaps splitting 10s can be thought of as situational dependent.

Dropping those below -2 cuts out about a third of total indices? So one does not need to know 100 indices if one plays smart.

If you have a large spread positive indices go up in value.

If one plays DD then those higher indices have value and you may face below -2TC.

Sch. has his catch 22 fab 4
Wong has -1 to +6
Griffin has about 50?
Snyder has about 25 or his lite indices

I wished Sch. would have listed all indices in order of importance. Snyder and Sch. both devalue splits and soft double indices. So if one wants to add more to the catch 22 it is probably in this order:
positive hit/stand, doubles up to +10
positive soft doubles up to +10
positive splits up to +10
negative indices (bleh):whip:
and/or
Griffin's recomendations

If learning additional indices beyond the catch22 takes away from table time or perhaps learning other techniques, then learning additional indices may not be advisable.:joker::whip:

 

[rukus]

I disagree. I think that the next 40 or so can add another 20%+/- relative gain. (ie, 1.5% edge becomes 1.8% edge). This little fraction increase can compound by playing longer sessions and by playing hands faster. See ZGI. zg

Agree with ZG here, especially for pitch games. The I18 won't suffice for pro play on single or double deck. Even for wonging 6 and 8 deckers, more indices will give you higher ev % at each TC. Higher ev means you can bet more. These two compounding effects really do add up the more you play, even recreationally.

Forget the actual monetary benefits of going a little further.... I cannot agree with all these suggestions for mediocrity that everyone wants to seem to achieve. It is a huge peeve of mine on these boards and other similar ones. And it seems to be spreading in popularity unfortunately. It is the attitude to do the best you can and work as hard as you can that actually leads to success in this game, not the number of indices you can retain. Aim low, end up low. Aim high, end up high. If you "just want to get by" with the mentality to learn only the I18, you won't last long.

(Steps down off soapbox and clicks submit...)

 

[Mixolydian87]

Can you edit your post and actually say what action to do when this occurs?

16v10 huh? okay I see it, now what....

 

[Sonny]

Can you edit your post and actually say what action to do when this occurs?

16v10 huh? okay I see it, now what....

The actions for the Ill18 are listed in the Frequently Asked Questions thread.

-Sonny-

 

[Mixolydian87]

-.- I figured as much, just thought you'd want to make the thread complete, no? Okay...

 

[Sonny]

-.- I figured as much, just thought you'd want to make the thread complete, no? Okay...

Sure. Here you go:

Insurance: Insure at +3 or higher.

Stand/Hit:
12 vs 2: Stand at +3 or higher, otherwise hit.
12 vs 3: Stand at +2 or higher, otherwise hit.
12 v 4: Stand at 0 or higher, otherwise hit.
12 v 5: Stand at -2 or higher, otherwise hit.
12 v 6: Stand at -1 or higher, otherwise hit.
13 v 2: Stand at -1 or higher, otherwise hit.
13 v 3: Stand at -2 or higher, otherwise hit.
15 vs T: Stand at +4 or higher, otherwise hit.
16 v 9: Stand at +5 or higher, otherwise hit.
16 vs T: Stand at 0 or higher, otherwise hit.

Double/Hit:
9 vs 2: Double at +1 or higher, otherwise hit.
9 v 7: Double at +3 or higher, otherwise hit.
10 vs T: Double at +4 or higher, otherwise hit.
10 vs A: Double at +4 or higher, otherwise hit.
11 vs A: Double at +1 or higher, otherwise hit.

Split/Stand:
TT vs 5: Split at +5 or higher, otherwise stand.
TT vs 6: Split at +4 or higher, otherwise stand.

 

[BJinNJ]

Those Indices are for Hi-Lo ONLY!

Don't use them for KO, Red Seven, Zen, RPC or other counts.

As a newbie I appreciate Don S.' work, saving me a lot of
study time and effort, in determining the most valuable departures
from BS. Eventually, I may learn additional indices, if this new
hobby pans out.

FWIW, the 16 v. T index for my count(lvl 2) is +1, by the book.

BJinNJ

 

[Mixolydian87]

Can't use in the KO system why not?

 

[zengrifter]

Can't use in the KO system why not?

You CAN use them, just not the same indices. zg

 

[Mixolydian87]

Do you mean the rules are the same but the point at which you apply them is different?

 

[cardcounter0]

Can't use in the KO system why not?

because those numbers are for the HiLo system. KO counts the 7 so you will get different running counts for the same card distributions than HiLo.

I would not use some of the above posted index numbers, as these are the straight mathematical EV numbers. As a previous poster stated, DO IT RIGHT.

That is why my original post did not post any numbers, just the plays. The numbers change if it is H17 or S17, number of decks, and rules. So you need to get the numbers for the game you play, and the count system you use (and find risk adverse indexes).

The correct approach would be to generate risk adverse indexes, and then tailor your bet spread to them. To seriously do the job right, you need to purchase the CVCX software product, generate indexes for the actual count you are using (risk adverse ones), and then use the software to generate the optimal bet spreads for the actual game conditions you will be playing.

Your optimal bet spread will vary depending on the penetration also. You need the software to recursively come up with the best bet spread to use.
Then you will be truely doing it right, and maximizing your profit potential.

There is more money to be made in doing it smart, rather than working hard with a bunch of indexes.

 

[bjcount]

because those numbers are for the HiLo system. KO counts the 7 so you will get different running counts for the same card distributions than HiLo.

I would not use some of the above posted index numbers, as these are the straight mathematical EV numbers. As a previous poster stated, DO IT RIGHT.

That is why my original post did not post any numbers, just the plays. The numbers change if it is H17 or S17, number of decks, and rules. So you need to get the numbers for the game you play, and the count system you use (and find risk adverse indexes).

The correct approach would be to generate risk adverse indexes, and then tailor your bet spread to them. To seriously do the job right, you need to purchase the CVCX software product, generate indexes for the actual count you are using (risk adverse ones), and then use the software to generate the optimal bet spreads for the actual game conditions you will be playing.

Your optimal bet spread will vary depending on the penetration also. You need the software to recursively come up with the best bet spread to use.
Then you will be truely doing it right, and maximizing your profit potential.

There is more money to be made in doing it smart, rather than working hard with a bunch of indexes.

From a beautifuly prepared essay of 22 indexes, you now suggest to do it right by using cvcx to create your own risk adverse indices. A computer is only as good as the person entering the data. Too much room for error. I would stick with the published indices or those created and published on these boards, review some of the published betting ramps and use one your comfortable with, then work with a unit size within your BR parameters.

There are many beginners reading these boards. It looks like we just jumped two levels, from beginner to advanced player in a few short lines. Basic fundamentals should be in order first before we go out and try to understand how the numbers are generated. After reading the post above, a beginner is going to question if they are learning the "correct" indices.

Your essay on the I18 and Fab4 was good, even though I do not agree with you on limiting the indices to just a few "popular ones".

BJC