2 level counts as added cover?

[weavin42]

I've just started to teach my roommate to count cards. I personally use the zen count but I told him he should start with hi-lo or ko and he went with hi-lo. There were times when we were practicing (I was dealing 3 hands to him and counting with zen while he counted with hi-lo) that I would take insurance or raise my bet where he would not have at his count. Since the majority of pit critters and the eye in the sky use hi-lo, can using a 2-level count add a little bit of cover in the few times where the count is different from hi-lo? Or is that just an assumption that the casino uses hi-lo? Or are the times where it makes a difference in betting insignificant due to their frequency?

Josh

 

[rdorange]

Hey, me too!

I was recently playing at the casino with a counter (from this message board) that used Zen. I use Hi-opt 1. I noticed the same thing. Our bet levels were different, and sometimes at different times.

 

[21forme]

I sometimes play mini-team with a friend who uses a level 2 count (Revere APC). I use KO. For the most part, our plays and bets track pretty well, but once in a while there are significant differences.

 

[EasyRhino]

My hunch is that it would not really matter. Bets are going to be higher at positive counts, and the index plays are going to be made with big bets out on the table. In other words, all of the symptoms of a card counter are going to be there.

Now, a cocky PC who's good at hi-lo might think that you're a BAD card counter if you're using a different count and it deviates from his expectation... but they'd probably still toss you anyway.

 

[Sonny]

I’ve noticed the same thing. I use Zen and my wife uses HiLo. Since the tags for a level 2 system are higher than a level 1 system, the RC is going to be much more volatile. You will find that your RC is sometimes twice as high as your partner’s (or twice as low). Your RC will also become positive more often. That is because a level 2 system is a little more accurate at finding advantages. It will find more of them and it will more accurately show you how big they are. You will be getting more action and making bigger bets than your partner. That’s the reason a level 2 system will outperform a level 1 system.

As far as cover goes, I don’t think it will help much. The pit is looking for people who raise their bets when the count is positive. You will be doing that no matter what system you are using. As Rhino said, they might think you are a weak counter but they will still recognize what you are doing.

-Sonny-

 

[Bojack1]

Using 2 different counting systems while playing as a team is an idea that I would find a bit troublesome. As a few have already pointed out they noticed some significant differences in betting and even at what point the bets were made. If you are playing with someone you don't know that well, or have no way of judging there skill level due to a totally different count system, who's to say they are even playing correctly at all. There is no quality control. I would also say if there is too high of a discrepency in when bets are being made and how much is being laid, there is likely to be errors being made on at least one end. Using different level counts may give players different gauges when there is or isn't an advantage, but if there is a point where the advantage is great for one and none for another, its safe to assume there is a quality of usage problem, along with the seperate system confusion. Either way if you don't understand your partners play, thats really adding more risk to an equation thats not in need of any extra.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I’ve noticed the same thing. I use Zen and my wife uses HiLo. Since the tags for a level 2 system are higher than a level 1 system, the RC is going to be much more volatile. You will find that your RC is sometimes twice as high as your partner’s (or twice as low). Your RC will also become positive more often. That is because a level 2 system is a little more accurate at finding advantages. It will find more of them and it will more accurately show you how big they are. You will be getting more action and making bigger bets than your partner. That’s the reason a level 2 system will outperform a level 1 system.

As far as cover goes, I don’t think it will help much. The pit is looking for people who raise their bets when the count is positive. You will be doing that no matter what system you are using. As Rhino said, they might think you are a weak counter but they will still recognize what you are doing.

-Sonny-

Between two balanced counts it will only be rare instances when the bets are significantly different, but what is funny is playing a balanced count with someone who is using unbalanced in a shoe game. This happened to me in LV this past February when I kept running into this team who I could tell was using KO because they were always light in the beginning of the shoe and heavy towards the end. Once I saw one raising his bet without an advantage, right at the last hand. I suppose that might throw the pit off a bit, but so would any cover bet and I'd rather choose for myself when to bet cover, not let the count do it for me.

 

[weavin42]

I agree that a team should all use the same count system or the team leader should be able to count in which ever system the team uses as well as their own. At this time I was merely teaching my roommate to count. I would like to put a team together but he has a long way to go and so do I, as I would want to be the team leader.

The other question is if the pit sees that you are counting but "doing it poorly" in their opinion (because of differences in counting systems) would they stop you? Can't the casino make just as much off a "bad" counter?

I guess I should also say that I primarily play double deck games so the volatility of the zen compared to hi-lo could play a larger factor in bet sizing than it would in a shoe game.

Josh

 

[Brock Windsor]

This happened to me in LV this past February when I kept running into this team who I could tell was using KO because they were always light in the beginning of the shoe and heavy towards the end.

Happened to me with a buddy. We usually play different tables but sat down together at an 8decker for beers at the end of the night. Him counting Hi-Lo myself counting TKO. With six decks to play he had an RC of 12 (TC2) I'm at 14 (TC1). He looked at me stunned when he increased his bet and I didn't. We we're probably both thinking "I've been coming in on this guys counts all night and losing, maybe he's lost his edge??" He said to me "what's going on??" He told me his RC so I said "must've only been two 7's come out in those first two decks...very next hand five 7's hit the felt, we both smiled a bit relieved.
BW