6/5 csm's and bad rules ...

[sagefr0g]

it's common for us to carry the flag proclaiming don't play bad games or unconventional plays. i'm one that takes the hypocritical route of do as i say not as i do from time to time.
yeah i don't think we should be playing these games but if i get a wild hair or what ever and see some advantage there well i'm gonna jump right in with both feet. musing over this prompted a question.
history as i understand it went something like this with respect to what happened when Thorp came out with his book Beat the Dealer. the casino's paniced, over reacted and instituted some bad rules to thwart the threat that they percieved Thorp's ideas represented to them. then historicaly what happened was the casino's ended up wissing backwards on the games putting them back to almost as good a game as they had been previous to Thorp.
well the question is how did that come about. what was it that made the casino's put their games back to the way they were. why is it that the same thing isn't happening with 6/5 csm's and other bad rules? i mean it's not just the 6/5 csm's and bad rules now we have these racino's and slot only parlors sprouting up that don't even offer table games and they are packed.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[ihate17]

Times are different but some things are the same

Bad games, CSM's, Mindplay systems: You make it sound like they all work for the casinos but in reality they do not.

The casinos will constantly be tweaking their games, searching for the combination of increasing profits while not chasing too many players away.
The thing different about today is that gambling is mainstream while in Thrope's day the percentage of people who traveled to casinos was much lower. This simply means you have a huge number of completely uneducated gamblers who know nothing about odds or house edges.

How in some ways things are the same:
Walk into a casino like MGM or Wynn. Near a main entrance you find tons of carnival games, 6/5 single deck and CSM's. The sucker pit, the pit designed to catch the guy who will just sit down at the first table he sees. Now look at the limits at these tables; lowest limits in the house.
Now go further back into the casino. You find good shoe games and decent double deck games (no double deck at MGM), and you find no 6/5 or CSM's but you also might find (especially when busy) that you must play at a higher minimum at these games.
The 6/5 tables are dominated by red chip players. The good tables are dominated by green chip and higher players.
The CSM tables are dominated by red chip players. There are no CSM's in any high limit pit in Vegas but there would be if higher level bettors would play on them but they will not.

Things like Mindplay have been a complete failure in Vegas. Removed first from Hilton and then from Flamingo. I think the reason why is simple, it could never have worked but the casinos involved were too stupid to realize this.
Mindplay was designed to reduce pit and surviellance types, cut comps, and catch counters and cheaters.
The pit and eye know it wants some of their jobs so they do nothing to help it works and do perhaps the opposite (it did breakdown all the time)
Well comped non counters always have gotten more from the pit and now are not happy with a machine which will only give them what they deserve. Also, they are uncomfortable or superstitious playing against it. So they flee to other casinos that do not have Mindplay.
Good counters and small teams quickly figured out how to beat the machine.

Today there are just too many people going to casinos that the effect on the red chip player is a lack of good games. Fortunately, for the green and higher chip player, most of the hoard of tourists do not play at their level, so good games remain available.

ihate17

Result the machine was a big loser for all.

 

[nc-tom]

Only Wealthy Need apply

:cry: :cry: Well it is nice to see that BJ is becoming a good game if only you are able to play at higher money levels. So red chippers get to play s@#t while people fortunate enough or lucky enough to play green or black get the good games.You would think that would create a class difference but it probably wont.Unfortunatly as IH17 stated most red chippers dont care about rules or house edge, they just WANT TO GAMBLE!!!ugh. I know when I go to the indian casinos near my house i see this in spades.The casinos are over run by mostly OTB asian ploppies who just want action at anything.They have no idea what the game is about they just want to bet on SOMETHING.Perfect example 2 ladies sit next to me one you could see had played some and was your normal ploppy. Her friend had been in the country 2 weeks and had never seen a BJ game before,she buys in for $500 in green and procedes to lose the entire amount in !/2 a shoe. she was hitting 17 against 10, standing on 15 against 7 you get the picture. With so many players playing like this the casinos know they dont have to offer good games except to players who know what they are doing. Since I can only afford to play at a red chip level this is most distressing

 

[avs21]

After Thorp's book LV tried changing rules to double on 11 only and you can't split aces. Their regular customers refused to play these games.

 

[ihate17]

too many players today

After Thorp's book LV tried changing rules to double on 11 only and you can't split aces. Their regular customers refused to play these games.

The point is that back then all regular customers were important to the casinos. Today, the high level regular is important but the low level regular is nothing because there are 1,000 tourists to replace him. So the smaller player suffers because his loyalty is worthless to the casino.

ihate17

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It's not so bad, nc-tom, for red chippers have a few opportunitites that higher stakes players don't. Lots of SD in northern Nevada won't take large action, a lot of very good shoe games in Washington State, odd games in the Midwest that I would love to play if they took more than a $50 bet. The down side of it is for you that it's not worth it to travel to these places and play low stakes.

Backcounting might be the thing for you. You can play significantly higher min games on a small bankroll that way, if you have a lot of patience. And you'll win more than playing a bad game at low stakes.

 

[sagefr0g]

Bad games, CSM's, Mindplay systems: You make it sound like they all work for the casinos but in reality they do not.

The casinos will constantly be tweaking their games, searching for the combination of increasing profits while not chasing too many players away.
The thing different about today is that gambling is mainstream while in Thrope's day the percentage of people who traveled to casinos was much lower. This simply means you have a huge number of completely uneducated gamblers who know nothing about odds or house edges.

How in some ways things are the same:
Walk into a casino like MGM or Wynn. Near a main entrance you find tons of carnival games, 6/5 single deck and CSM's. The sucker pit, the pit designed to catch the guy who will just sit down at the first table he sees. Now look at the limits at these tables; lowest limits in the house.
Now go further back into the casino. You find good shoe games and decent double deck games (no double deck at MGM), and you find no 6/5 or CSM's but you also might find (especially when busy) that you must play at a higher minimum at these games.
The 6/5 tables are dominated by red chip players. The good tables are dominated by green chip and higher players.
The CSM tables are dominated by red chip players. There are no CSM's in any high limit pit in Vegas but there would be if higher level bettors would play on them but they will not.

Things like Mindplay have been a complete failure in Vegas. Removed first from Hilton and then from Flamingo. I think the reason why is simple, it could never have worked but the casinos involved were too stupid to realize this.
Mindplay was designed to reduce pit and surviellance types, cut comps, and catch counters and cheaters.
The pit and eye know it wants some of their jobs so they do nothing to help it works and do perhaps the opposite (it did breakdown all the time)
Well comped non counters always have gotten more from the pit and now are not happy with a machine which will only give them what they deserve. Also, they are uncomfortable or superstitious playing against it. So they flee to other casinos that do not have Mindplay.
Good counters and small teams quickly figured out how to beat the machine.

Today there are just too many people going to casinos that the effect on the red chip player is a lack of good games. Fortunately, for the green and higher chip player, most of the hoard of tourists do not play at their level, so good games remain available.

ihate17

Result the machine was a big loser for all.

great analysis. thank you. i guess thats why i feel the pain so much. i'm a red chip player still. bank roll you know just isn't sufficient yet.
so what does anyone think. is there hope of salvaging the low stakes games?
best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[ihate17]

Northern Nevada and other places

Mr fr0g

The few places in Vegas that combine good rules with low bets are also places that are very intolerant of counters. Downtown, places the Western and El Cortez and a few others have good single and double deck games but do not tolerate a bet spread very well. Same goes for some of the Coast casino double deck games that are decent.

In Northern Nevada there are plenty of single deck games that are playable. Again most places are intolerant but you can always find a game.

I know a So Cal Indian casino that has a low limit single deck game with a 3/2 payout but generally they shuffle up too quickly and the table is crowded, perhaps at an off hour it is more playable.

The problem is today you have to search for good games at any betting level but especially as a red chip player.

Besides there being to many low level bettors, there is an economic thing working against you, especially on the strip. $5 blackjack just can not make enough money today for most casinos. A few tables may be offered as a convience to the players but overall the numbers do not add up.
Say over an 8 hour shift, the table is very busy, averaging 5 players, playing 60 hands per hour, with an average bet of double that minimum or $10 and it is a typical Vegas double deck, H-17 game with a .40% edge.
So $50 per deal X 60 hands X 8 hours is $24,000 of action X .40% equals a profit of $96.
But we know that most players do not play perfect basic strategy, so assume that the average is 3X worse than basic strategy, and that would put the profit at $288 per table. From that $288 the casino must pay 1 1/3 dealers (dealer and relief) perhaps a third of a pits salary, a portion of the pit boss, shift manager, table game manager, cocktail waitress, pit clerk and eye's salaries. Add in a few other expenses such as retirement, sick days, medical, the cards, lights and whatever, and they really are not making any money on a $5 table with $10 bettors who play bad blackjack. Imagine how bad it would be for the casino if everyone just played perfect basic strategy, they would destroy the rules and stuff like 6/5 would be at every table.

I know we really do not often look at these things from the casino or beancounter point of view, but it sometimes can be the answer. It is also the reason we should appreciate that bad player, because without his terrible play, there would be no decent blackjack available for the few of us.

ihate17

 

[sagefr0g]

Mr fr0g

The few places in Vegas that combine good rules with low bets are also places that are very intolerant of counters. Downtown, places the Western and El Cortez and a few others have good single and double deck games but do not tolerate a bet spread very well. Same goes for some of the Coast casino double deck games that are decent.

In Northern Nevada there are plenty of single deck games that are playable. Again most places are intolerant but you can always find a game.

I know a So Cal Indian casino that has a low limit single deck game with a 3/2 payout but generally they shuffle up too quickly and the table is crowded, perhaps at an off hour it is more playable.

The problem is today you have to search for good games at any betting level but especially as a red chip player.

Besides there being to many low level bettors, there is an economic thing working against you, especially on the strip. $5 blackjack just can not make enough money today for most casinos. A few tables may be offered as a convience to the players but overall the numbers do not add up.
Say over an 8 hour shift, the table is very busy, averaging 5 players, playing 60 hands per hour, with an average bet of double that minimum or $10 and it is a typical Vegas double deck, H-17 game with a .40% edge.
So $50 per deal X 60 hands X 8 hours is $24,000 of action X .40% equals a profit of $96.
But we know that most players do not play perfect basic strategy, so assume that the average is 3X worse than basic strategy, and that would put the profit at $288 per table. From that $288 the casino must pay 1 1/3 dealers (dealer and relief) perhaps a third of a pits salary, a portion of the pit boss, shift manager, table game manager, cocktail waitress, pit clerk and eye's salaries. Add in a few other expenses such as retirement, sick days, medical, the cards, lights and whatever, and they really are not making any money on a $5 table with $10 bettors who play bad blackjack. Imagine how bad it would be for the casino if everyone just played perfect basic strategy, they would destroy the rules and stuff like 6/5 would be at every table.

I know we really do not often look at these things from the casino or beancounter point of view, but it sometimes can be the answer. It is also the reason we should appreciate that bad player, because without his terrible play, there would be no decent blackjack available for the few of us.

ihate17

yea, yea i get it ihate17. to borrow a phrase "it's the economy stupid" :laugh: is a bit of the answer. hmm never looked at it from that angle.
i like the idea of being able to take that perspective could fit in very well with camo strategies.
well i suppose since a lot of tourist's shy away from the higher limit tables that there is some economic justification for joints to have some lower limit tables.
so anyway i get your point about gambling being so hot now and that all these tourists come flocking in playing the first thing they see that is relatively low limit that being the 6/5 and csm's.
so probably it's not to likely the 6/5 and csm's are going to go away unless say a really popular book like Thorp's comes out and the general gambling public becomes educated to the point where they wont play them either.
best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[tedloc]

Where

Mr fr0g


I know a So Cal Indian casino that has a low limit single deck game with a 3/2 payout but generally they shuffle up too quickly and the table is crowded, perhaps at an off hour it is more playable.

ihate17

I live in San Diego. What casino has the SD game????

 

[avs21]

There are still plenty of opportunities for red chip players especially if your close enough to drive to Northern Nevada. Like Ihate17 said you have to look harder, but they do exist. I can find around a dozen places in N. Nevada that deal out SD with the house edge of 18% or less.There are still plenty of other playable games in the area also. These places have small mins of $3-$10min. Reno area you can find a decent hotel for dirt cheap prices if you go during the right times. I guess if you live on the East Coast with only shoe games not the best conditions for red chip players.

 

[ihate17]

Got to up to Riverside county

I live in San Diego. What casino has the SD game????

Soboba casino. I think a $10 min, $100 max and just one table that is generally crowded.

How do you find Soboba Casino. First you go half hour past the middle of nowhere and then you get lost. Should result in you pulling up to the front door.