A Casino Experience

BradRod

Well-Known Member
Maybe its the change in my game and game face as I play more to my advantage but, lately i have been fielding increasing petty criticism from other (non-advantaged) players. I mostly get along great with dealers and pit people but, other players have become an irritating and ditracting problem. Some of the ways this happens:

Chatty players who get irritated when I give them only brief responses in return

Protests when I get up in the middle of a soft shoe. If the table is otherwise good I will stay in my seat and simply let them know I am pulling the hand out. The shoe invariably yields bad player hands and everyone grumbles about how I caused it by messing up the order of the cards or some such thing. These players seem to take comfort in thinking they can play table team blackjack to beat the house ( resembles rounding the wagons : ). I guess pulling my hand makes them feel insecure.

Cricism of how I play my hands , whether standard BS plays like hitting A7 v 9,10,A or splitting 4's,or prprly or splitting 9's. and certainly for deviations in BS especially standing on 16 v T (by the way i would appreciate it if anyone can give me some lay way of understang why in high counts we only stand on 16 v T and not any other card ?? )

I even had to endure a whole shoe full of comments from a youngish, oriental guy player for the whole shoe about how my cut caused every bad hand in the shoe. when i confronted him about it he said that i sat down to the table with an attitude and immediately usurped the cut when ther was a supposedly "lucky" regular cutter at the table.

I think i have a thick enough skin and don't really care a bit about what most of these poor saps think of me but this has been happening more and more lately and is very distracting from my game. also calls casino personnel attention to me which can't be a good thing.

Anyone else come across these attitudes and reactions. Any thoughts about dealing with it.
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
(by the way i would appreciate it if anyone can give me some lay way of understang why in high counts we only stand on 16 v T and not any other card ?? )

The only cards that save a 16. vs. T. are 4 and 5. No other stiff is as limited in its upside potential (except 7-7 vs. T in single deck).
 

SammyBoy

Well-Known Member
Hey BradRod,

I know exactly what you mean. I think you have to have a thick skin to be a cardcounter. I usually sit there and smile, but one time this old lady went on and on about how me doubling on a soft 18 against a 3 killed the whole table. I listened to her for at least 3 more rounds of cards and then finally I couldn't take it anymore. I told her "look lady, I'm going to double soft 18 against 3 all night long and if you don't like it that's too bad." She then said, I have a right to say whatever I want. I said yes you do, and she never said another word until I left an hour later. Most counters will probably disagree, but I've found that many times confronting these a-holes is the best way to shut them up. The main thing I try to do is build a rapport with the dealer and one or two of the other players. It's hard for the jerks to openly ridicule you when you seem to be the "man" of the table, if you know what I mean. It's when you sit there being real quiet/seemingly unfriendly that those things will bother you the most. Just my opinion.
 

BradRod

Well-Known Member
>>>> The only cards that save a 16. vs. T. are 4 and 5. No other stiff is as limited in its upside potential (except 7-7 vs. T in single deck). <<<<<

Thanks, to press the question once, if I have 16 against 7 - A and am playing in a high count with a big bet out. Since I know the deck is relatively short of those redeeming 5 's and 6's there is a great chance the card I pull will be a T and a sure bust. Why not stand and see what happens. I always bite the bullet and play it correctly and pull (usually bust ), just dont understand why ..
 

BradRod

Well-Known Member
Thanks, i do agree the times that I confront the whiners it does seem to stop the "noise". if i can manage to find the grace and peace of mind to do it in a friendly and/or joking way it has actually turned things around for me vis a vis the other players. But, even when i 've done it in anger or irritation they at least shut up even if they may remain unhappy about it.

Play on Sammy the MAN !
 

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
I will often ask them what I should do with my $5 hand after they go berzerk about a play I made. Then I will ask another player what s/he thinks I should do, then maybe ask the dealer. Normally that shuts them up. Try a few different methods and enjoy yourself. Sit at third and see how much action you can get going when you double your 9,A v 5 or 6 up!!
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
16 vs. 7 you can win by pulling a 2, 3, 4 or 5.
16 vs. T you can only win by pulling a 5.

4 times the chance to win! Take the hit!

Chances of busting with a 7 up or a T up are about the same (I haven't looked at the numbers recently -- so don't quote me on this).
 

steve

Active Member
start playing goof ball blackjack

I was playing with a friend at a very fun casino in biloxi, he was at third base, I was at first base and we had a couple of sour grapes who were nagging us about our play, I don't rememeber the exact infraction, but I just pretended like I had no idea what they were talking about. "Why didn't you stand on that 12 vs the dealer 2"? gloomy player yelled. "I'm supposed to stand with a 12, how do you know that? Basic strategy? What is that?" The count was negative and the shoe was absolutely terrible so my friend and I started playing goofball blackjack, doubling on stiff hands, standing when we should have hit, splitting 5's and 10's. This got the gloomy guses to shut up and branded us as total incompetents by the pit crew. Plus we had a blast! Oh, we also won money that shoe after we switched to goofball blackjack!

I don't let people like that get me down.

Usually these people are complaining about $5 bets, I have been known to offer to repay their lost bet for them if the truly think I cost them the hand, I've never had anyone take me up on it. It's funny how many of these people will complain about the money you lost them while they throw good money away by not doubling when they should and not splitting correctly.

Steve
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
(Too Much) More on 16 v T,7: Part 2

In practice, of course, we base our decisions not on the EORs for an individual hand, but on imperfect count systems that attempt to approximate the average effects of cards for all decisions, whether playing, insurance or betting related. It is not surprising, then, that our count systems will not be well tailored to all playing decisions. This is true of 16 v T and especially 16 v 7.

For 16 v T, most systems 'mistreat' the 6, which is the most important big card for this particular play. This will cause us to misread the true favorability of hitting 16 v T to some extent. For example, a pretty good system for 16 v T, listing tags from ace to ten, would be (0 0 1 1 2 -1 1 0 0 -1)! Of course, this would be horrible for betting and insurance, as well as most other playing decisions.

For 16 v 7, the problem is not just in the treatment of the 6, but also the way we deal with the 7s, 8s, 9s and tens. Our count systems typically value tens as among the most important big cards, yet for the specific case of 16 v 7, tens are far less important than the 6s-9s. A reasonable system for 16 v 7 might be (1 1 1 1 1 -1 -1 -1 -2 0). Again, you wouldn't want to use it for much else!

In other words, most count systems are quite bad for 16 v T and terrible for 16 v 7.

----- -----

If we add to our analysis of the EORs the ineptness of our count systems for playing 16 v T and 16 v 7, the reason for the rareness of standing on 16 v 7 will become evident.

Essentially, the likelihood of a count system indicating appropriate departures from basic strategy for a given hand depends on the following things:

a) m;
b) SSr;
c) the playing efficiency of our count system for the specific hand.

The larger the full-deck favorability of hitting, m, the less likely (other things remaining equal) that standing will become correct at some point in the deck. Since 16 v T has a small m, whereas 16 v 7 has a large m, correct standing is likely to occur more often for the former than the latter.

The larger the sum of squares of the effects of removal, SSr, or the greater the 'volatility' of the hand, the more likely it is that the effects of removing cards can overcome a large full-deck favorability, m. Notice that 16 v 7 is actually more volatile than 16 v T, its SSr being 48.2 as opposed to 19.1 for 16 v T. So if we had perfect knowledge of the remaining deck composition, standing on 16 v 7 would actually occur reasonably frequently, even though m is large.

HOWEVER...

Most count systems are so poor on 16 v 7 that they fail to detect many of the situations where standing is appropriate. Since most systems treat tens as a big card, and since the ten is not an important big card for 16 v 7, the count will not be very well correlated with the favorability of hitting or standing. That is, it will tell us when there are lots of tens left, relative to small cards, when what we really need to know is the ratio between small cards and 'medium' cards.

Notice that most count systems are also fairly poor for 16 v T (though not as bad as for 16 v 7), but because m is so small, the scales can be tipped in favour of standing much more easily, despite the relatively small volatility and count system's PE for this hand (which is governed by the correlation between the system's tags and the EORs for this hand).

----- -----

Further reading:

Peter Griffin, _The Theory of Blackjack_, 6th edition (especially chapter 6, but also tables on pp.19, 121-122, 149)
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
(Too Much) More on 16 v T,7: Part 1

I had to break this post up into two parts as it was too long. Clearly I've got too much time on my hands. ;-)

----- -----

The Mayor's answer is spot on, of course, but I thought I might add in a few extra details, since I've noticed lots of players intuitively or instinctively seem to feel that standing on 16 v 7 makes more sense than standing on 16 v T, given the strength of the dealer's T up.

From the outset it should be acknowledged that the player's fear of the dealer's T up is well placed. You are in a worse position holding 16 v T than 16 v 7. Griffin's single-deck figures give basic-strategy expectations of -.540 and -.415, respectively (TTOBJ, 6th ed., p.121).

However, the choice over whether to hit or stand is a separate issue.

----- -----

We can get some insight into the matter by considering the effects of removing individual cards for each decision. From Griffin, pp.74-85 we have the following effects of removal (EORs), listed from ace to ten:
16 v T: -0.49, -0.29, -0.80, -1.73, -2.57, 1.65, -0.71, -0.06, 0.55, 1.12; m = -0.45, SSr = 19.1

16 v 7: -1.88, -1.93, -2.44, -2.78, -2.33, 1.80, 2.10, 2.32, 2.77, 0.59; m = 6.07, SSr 48.2

where m is the full-deck favorability of hitting the hand rather than standing and SSr is the sum of squares of the effects of removal.

The above entries deserve a quick explanation:

a) The first ten entries for each hand tell you how the favorability of hitting is altered by removing each card. For instance, removing one 6 from the deck increases the favorability of hitting 16 v T by 1.65%. Similarly, removing one 4 decreases the favorability of hitting 16 v 7 by 2.78%.

b) The value for m tells us how much better it is to hit than stand. Hitting 16 v 7 gives an expectation that is 6.07% better than standing. If we remove the dealer's upcard, this is modified to 6.07 + 2.10 = 8.17% better to hit than stand. The situation is much closer for 16 v T. In fact, if our cards were to be drawn from a full 52-card deck, it would actually be .45% better to stand. However, removing the dealer's upcard, we get -.45 + 1.12 = .67% better to hit.

c) The values for the SSr indicate the degree of 'volatility' inherent in the situation. Volatility refers to how rapidly the favorability of hitting changes relative to standing as the deck is depleted. (In other situations, it could relate to the choice between hitting and splitting, standing and splitting or hitting and doubling.) A high SSr simply reflects the presence of at least some EORs with large absolute values, which implies that removing some cards should ideally have a big effect on our decision.

Looking at the EORs, we can see that 16 v T is a much closer decision off the top of the deck. On the other hand, 16 v 7 is more volatile, so it will still be possible for standing to be correct sometimes.

So we get back to the original question: Why is 16 v T a closer call than 16 v 7? A further question will suggest itself once we have dealt with the first one: How well will our count systems detect variations in the favorability of hitting versus standing?

As will be seen, our reticence to stand on 16 v 7 is partly due to the large full-deck favorability of hitting, but also partly because of the ineptness of standard systems in detecting situations where it would be beneficial to stand.

----- -----

If you look at the EORs for 16 v T you will notice a few things:

a) The EORs for aces, 2s and 3s are small.
b) The EORs for 7s, 8s and 9s are small.
c) The EORs for tens are moderate.
d) The key cards are the 5s and 6s.

The reason for a) is that removing aces, 2s or 3s has contradictory effects on the favorability of hitting 16 v T. The primary effect of removing a 2 or 3 is to make hitting less palatable, since we are more likely to bust. However, working against this is the fact that removing a 2 or 3 makes it less likely that the dealer will bust (from a 2 or 3 in the hole), partially dampening any enthusiasm for standing. This impact on the dealer's bust probability is itself dampened though, by the fact that a 2 or 3 will sometimes prevent a dealer bust (eg, when the holecard is a 6). The ace is slightly different. Assuming no ace in the hole (otherwise it wouldn't matter what action we took), the effects of removing an ace on the dealer bust probability is restricted to what happens when the dealer is required to draw a third or later card. Here, sometimes the appearance of an ace causes the dealer to bust (eg, T, 5, A, 6), but sometimes helps the dealer make a hand (eg, T, 6, A or T, 2, A, 4). Overall it turns out that removing an ace marginally increases the dealer's chance of busting off a ten. In terms of the player's hitting prognosis, removing an ace worsens the situation, but only moderately, since an ace is less help than a 2 or 3 anyway, and much less helpful than a 4 or 5.

The reason for b) is that removing 7s, 8s or 9s reduces the chance of the player busting from 16 (encouraging hitting) but simultaneously increases the dealer's chance of busting (encouraging standing). Removing a 7, in particular, has a big impact on the dealer's bust probability. Partly this is because the dealer is less likely to have a 7 in the hole, and partly it is because a 7 won't bust a dealer total of 14 or less. Similar, though weaker, effects are present with the 8 and 9.

In terms of c), removing a ten makes the player less likely to bust (encouraging hitting). The impact on the dealer's bust probability is miniscule. While a preponderance of tens makes it more likely that the dealer will bust from stiffs, it is also more likely that the dealer will have a ten in the hole.

As d) suggests, 5 is the most important small card (followed by the 4) and 6 is the key big card. The reason the EORs for these cards are so big is that the effects on player hitting and dealer busting reinforce each other. Removing a 5 makes it less likely that the player will improve the hand by hitting (encouraging standing) and more likely that the dealer will bust (encouraging standing). In contrast, removing a 6 makes it less likely that the player will bust (encouraging hitting), and less likely that the dealer will bust (encouraging hitting).

To summarize the story for 16 v T, there are only two cards that can significantly help the player if hitting, and the removal of cards that make it less likely for the player to bust usually also increases the chance of the dealer busting.

----- -----

The EORs for 16 v 7 show the following:

a) The EORs for aces, 2s, 3s, 4s and 5s are large and negative.
b) The EORs for 6s, 7s, 8s and 9s are large and positive.
c) The impact of removing a ten is negligible.

In terms of a), removing an A-5 makes it more difficult for the player to improve the hand through hitting and reduces the dealers chance of busting, except in the case of the 5, where the effect is very close to zero but of the opposite sign (this explains why the EORs for the 3 and 4 are larger in absolute value than the EOR for the 5).

Turning to b), removing a 6-9 makes it less likely that the player will bust (encouraging hitting) and less likely that the dealer will bust (enouraging hitting).

Regarding c), a preponderance of tens makes a player bust more likely (discouraging hitting), but actually makes dealer busting less likely (encouraging hitting), though the latter effect is only moderate. The impact on dealer busting is only moderate because contradictory effects are present. On the one hand, lots of tens make it more likely that the dealer will have a pat 17. On the other hand, the dealer will be more likely to bust stiffs (for which the 5s-9s play a role).

To summarize the story for 16 v 7, there are five cards (A-5) that can significantly help the player who hits (encouraging hitting). On the other hand, most cards that bust the player also help to bust the dealer (encouraging standing). The first point partially explains the greater benefit of hitting 16 v 7, relative to 16 v T. Nevertheless, the latter point suggests that standing will sometimes become correct. Why, then, is correct standing (from the player's perspective) so rare? To completely answer this, we need to address another issue.
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
Sorry, need to read Part 1 first

I found a small error in the part 1 post, so when I put it back up it was out of order.

EOR stands for 'effect of removal'. For example, we might ask what is the effect of removing a 5 on the favorability of hitting 16 v T, rather than standing?
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
Small Correction

A potentially confusing error crept in to my discussion of 16 v 7. The problematic part of the following passage is marked ** :

"In terms of a), removing an A-5 makes it more difficult for the player to improve the hand through hitting and *reduces* the dealers chance of busting, except in the case of the 5, where the effect is very close to zero but of the opposite sign (this explains why the EORs for the 3 and 4 are larger in absolute value than the EOR for the 5)."

Here *reduces* should read 'increases'. To see this, we can consider the effects in turn. Removing an ace reduces the chance that the dealer has a pat hand. Removing 2s-4s reduces the chance that the dealer will have a two-card total of 9-11. The 5 is different. A 5 in the hole gives a two-card dealer total of 12, and so contributes slightly to dealer busting. Thus removing As-4s significantly increases the dealer's bust probability; removing a 5 has little effect, but what effect there is is in the opposite direction.

This means that the effects of removing As-4s are reinforcing, since removing these cards worsens the player's chance of improving on 16 (discouraging hitting) and increases the chance of the dealer busting (discouraging hitting and encouraging standing). The fact that the effects are reinforcing creates big EORs. In contrast, the effect of removing a 5 is slightly dampened, since the player is less likely to improve on 16 by hitting (discouraging hitting), but the dealer is slightly less likely to bust (discouraging standing). This is why the EOR for the 5 is smaller in absolute value than the effects for the 3 and 4, even though a 5 is the best card for the player's total of 16.

Apologies for any confusion caused.
 

Slowhand

Member
ALIENATED - Thank you very much...

Thanks for an excellent analysis. Those plays have always bothered me, and it helps to have the math explained in easy to understand terms.
Good Luck.
Slowhand
 

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Re: Small Correction

Awesome explanation. Your ability to understand the ins and outs of these complex ideas and explain them in simple terms will constantly "alienate" you from the pack. ;> The count is only one reflection of how we can get an advantage, especially in a one deck or two deck game where it is often possible to know how many A you have seen and how many 4 and 5 cards you have seen go by. If you are able to do that, then the question of "to hit or not to hit" can once again be answered with COLD HARD MATH! Each step is preparation for the next.
 

zengrifter

Banned
16 v 7-A

Thanks, to press the question once, if I have 16 against 7 - A and am playing in a high count with a big bet out. Since I know the deck is relatively short of those redeeming 5 's and 6's there is a great chance the card I pull will be a T and a sure bust. Why not stand and see what happens. I always bite the bullet and play it correctly and pull (usually bust ), just dont understand why ..
-------------------------------

There ARE i#s for those hands as well, albeit high and worth much less than 16v10, for example the i# for standing w/16v7 is about +11 (hiLo 1DTC). zg
 
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