a question, ettiquette and good sense-wise

[Bacchante]

I was playing in Vegas in December, at the $10 minimum tables, and I spotted another counter (I use hi-lo) and so was he. His outfit was stereotyped- ballcap pulled way down, jacket collar turned up, etc. He was wonging in and out all over; all of this I really don't care about except when he sat by me at the table I was at and his bets exactly mimicked mine, and he took the open spot between us before I did when the TC went to +5 very early in the deck, and of course caught what would have been my blackjack. The count stayed high, both of us taking insurance two hands in a row, and the cards ran against him- so he stood up and reached into his pockets for more chips and a couple of lavenders fell out on the table, besides blacks and greens. (remember this is a $10 min table.) Anyway the shoe ran out, neither of us had a great run, and he's leaving two $50 bets out during the shuffle. Right after the cut but before the deal he says oops and pulls back his bets and bets one spot for 10. The count went minus so he left. Shortly after that so did I and went across the street to another casino. I began playing and sure enough he shows up, again sits by me, again is matching my progression. No great run, the count went minus, he left. A while later I was at a different table, he was watching, and he wonged in when the count went plus, then sat out when it didn't. After the shuffle he still didn't play but was still at the table; it was obvious to me he was waiting to wong in, meanwhile I was playing and I was not going to be happy if I road out the cards and then he jumped in if/when the count went up, but it never did so halfway through the shoe he left. I know this is one awful long post and I apologize for that, but I was just wondering what others thing about his play. He HAD to know I was counting, for goodness sakes our bets matched exactly, and we're both insuring junk hands at +3, etc. Do others think this is fine (remember I was at the tables before he was) and it's every man or woman for themselves, or is this bad form, to say nothing of maybe getting us spotted as counting.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

I say it's bad form, as it generates heat for both people, in some cases. It's much easier to spot two counters betting in unison. If you see him outside of the casinos, I would probably ask him to not jump into your shoes any more; unless he's a real jerk, he should realize that it's in both of your best interests.

 

[creeping panther]

Bacc

I was playing in Vegas in December, at the $10 minimum tables, and I spotted another counter (I use hi-lo) and so was he. His outfit was stereotyped- ballcap pulled way down, jacket collar turned up, etc. He was wonging in and out all over; all of this I really don't care about except when he sat by me at the table I was at and his bets exactly mimicked mine, and he took the open spot between us before I did when the TC went to +5 very early in the deck, and of course caught what would have been my blackjack. The count stayed high, both of us taking insurance two hands in a row, and the cards ran against him- so he stood up and reached into his pockets for more chips and a couple of lavenders fell out on the table, besides blacks and greens. (remember this is a $10 min table.) Anyway the shoe ran out, neither of us had a great run, and he's leaving two $50 bets out during the shuffle. Right after the cut but before the deal he says oops and pulls back his bets and bets one spot for 10. The count went minus so he left. Shortly after that so did I and went across the street to another casino. I began playing and sure enough he shows up, again sits by me, again is matching my progression. No great run, the count went minus, he left. A while later I was at a different table, he was watching, and he wonged in when the count went plus, then sat out when it didn't. After the shuffle he still didn't play but was still at the table; it was obvious to me he was waiting to wong in, meanwhile I was playing and I was not going to be happy if I road out the cards and then he jumped in if/when the count went up, but it never did so halfway through the shoe he left. I know this is one awful long post and I apologize for that, but I was just wondering what others thing about his play. He HAD to know I was counting, for goodness sakes our bets matched exactly, and we're both insuring junk hands at +3, etc. Do others think this is fine (remember I was at the tables before he was) and it's every man or woman for themselves, or is this bad form, to say nothing of maybe getting us spotted as counting.

There is no love between AP's unless you have an association such as friendship. He was doing his thing, you do yours.

In this situation I for sure would have done my thing, he would have got the message fast.

CP

 

[21forme]

In this situation I for sure would have done my thing, he would have got the message fast.
CP

What thing is that?

 

[Blue Efficacy]

I hope CP's thing doesn't involve threats of physical violence. :joker:

But I have spotted other counters and have had them do "leg work" for me before. If you do this though you must be DISCREET! It is an insult to them if they are in any way able to tell what you are doing.

There is nothing wrong with being subtle and using information another person collected and is using to your advantage. If you're an obnoxious punk about it and rub it in their face, this isn't good for anyone.

And of course if they steal the empty box between them, you can try to catch them off guard and ask them ploppie questions, tell them they're messing up the flow, etc. Make sure the critter knows the punk is spreading to two hands. You could even play a soft game for a while to stay under the radar until they nail the kid.

Of course, if I am playing a shuffle tracking game, and a card counter is crowding my game, this gives me a bag of tricks to ruin them with! In a 6 deck game with 80% pen, I could cut a deck with lots of little cards to the fifth deck. Set up a situation that exploits the weaknesses of card counting vs. tracking.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

What thing is that?

The last time I "did my own thing" at the table, security came over and told me to keep my hands on top of the table or I was going to be escorted. :cat:

Seriously, in Las Vegas avoid other counters unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise. It amplifies heat. Also, do not use other counters as spotters without their consent. It violates the Golden Rule and provokes someone who has all the same abilities you do and could potentially retaliate.

 

[Sharky]

bacchante,

side point...you are not insuring your lousy hand, it is a side bet...makes no difference if you have BJ or 16

 

[Blue Efficacy]

bacchante,

side point...you are not insuring your lousy hand, it is a side bet...makes no difference if you have BJ or 16

Anyone who is not AP sees it differently, you know.

Also when speaking from a variance point of view the value of the hand you insure is not meaningless.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

The last time I "did my own thing" at the table, security came over and told me to keep my hands on top of the table or I was going to be escorted. :cat:

Seriously, in Las Vegas avoid other counters unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise. It amplifies heat. Also, do not use other counters as spotters without their consent. It violates the Golden Rule and provokes someone who has all the same abilities you do and could potentially retaliate.

You sound pretty proud of yourself for being contacted by security. Yet you are so quick to rag on the "low lifes" at casinos. Are you any different from them if you are acting in a way that provokes security? (Apart from playing with skill of course)

Like I said NEVER use another player as a spotter unless you're 100% sure they won't figure out what you're doing. What they don't know won't hurt them. If you can peg them without them pegging you first, to them you're just another player who annoyingly wanders into your high counts.

Note that if the counter in question did not appear to be obnoxious I would probably not do this.

 

[creeping panther]

Blue

You sound pretty proud of yourself for being contacted by security. Yet you are so quick to rag on the "low lifes" at casinos. Are you any different from them if you are acting in a way that provokes security? (Apart from playing with skill of course)

Like I said NEVER use another player as a spotter unless you're 100% sure they won't figure out what you're doing. What they don't know won't hurt them. If you can peg them without them pegging you first, to them you're just another player who annoyingly wanders into your high counts.

Note that if the counter in question did not appear to be obnoxious I would probably not do this.

AM was just joking..Geez...:laugh::laugh:

CP

 

[London Colin]

AM was just joking..Geez...:laugh::laugh:

CP

Ah, but only those of us with dirty minds got the joke. :grin:

 

[Canceler]

Let's all pick on Blue today...

Ah, but only those of us with dirty minds got the joke. :grin:

But he still did miss the key word...

The last time I "did my own thing" at the table, security came over and told me to keep my hands on top of the table or I was going to be escorted. :cat:

Seriously, in Las Vegas avoid other counters unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise. It amplifies heat. Also, do not use other counters as spotters without their consent. It violates the Golden Rule and provokes someone who has all the same abilities you do and could potentially retaliate.

... which indicates that what came before might have been less than serious. :laugh:

 

[Machinist]

REally??

I had no idea there were rules.... So when i go into a new casino and am looking for my AP machines to hustle.... I am not supposed to follow a hustler that is already in there??? Wow!!! dammit now that is gonna make things a whole lot harder...
The first thing i look for is competition.. and then follow and see what they have or "know"... Then i look around for what i "know".... Well hell!!!!!!!!!!
So if i see a good Ocp game and somebody is already there ..... crap...
Well rules is rules and if we didnt have rules...we'd still be slinging crap at each other in the tree's !!!
Also... I'm supposed to keep both hands on the table????? well!!!!!
Very bored Machinist today... little under the weather

Machinist

 

[StandardDeviant]

... caught what would have been my blackjack ...

How did you conclude that it was your blackjack? Did he sit to your right and only wong in for that one hand? If more hands were played with him there then it is hard to say that you would have otherwise gotten that hand.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

How did you conclude that it was your blackjack? Did he sit to your right and only wong in for that one hand? If more hands were played with him there then it is hard to say that you would have otherwise gotten that hand.

If the first card was an ace and the second card for the neighboring hand was also a 10, then yes he would have had blackjack. But if I wouldn't have used that borderline index play I could have gotten a BJ the next round. Best not to fixate on this stuff!

BTW, I get the joke now, oops!

 

[Sharky]

...Also when speaking from a variance point of view the value of the hand you insure is not meaningless.

granted if it's a close count, but when I hear the "variance point of view" => risk adverse => probably betting over your head