An amazing barring experience

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
I am forwarding this personal email with the author's permission.
====================================================================

>
>Mr. Jacobson,
>
>I apologize for the length of this email. Thanks in advance for bearing
>with me.
>
>I've spent the last couple of days reading posts and Podiums on your site
>and I have to say that I find it all very interesting. I would welcome any
>thoughts you might have on my recent experience.
>
>I have gambled for about 15 years, but I am not as skilled as any of your
>posters. I understand the precepts of card counting and own a couple of
>books on the subject. But gambling for me is only an entertainment and I
>treat it as such. I enjoy poker, blackjack, and roulette. I can win at
>medium limit poker and that almost makes up for what I lose elsewhere. My
>blackjack play is basic strategy mostly at $25 tables. In the last 5 years,
>I have played regularly at three casinos near my home and I visit Las Vegas
>and/or Biloxi a couple of times a year. I always use a player's card.
>Though I don't lose THAT much, I have never been turned down for any
>requested comp. Other than the occasional horrific loss, I have never had
>any negative incident in a casino. In short, I can afford this gambling
>lifestyle and I enjoy it.
>
>On July 11th, everything changed. My wife and I, along with two friends,
>had spent the day playing at Caesar's Palace. My friends played mostly
>craps and were a few hundred ahead, my wife won $500 at roulette, and I got
>slaughtered at blackjack. I couldn't buy a hand and, for the day, was down
>around $3000. About 7PM, we cashed out and were standing around trying to
>decide on dinner plans. While we were standing there, a suited casino
>employee addressed me by name and asked if he could speak to me. I said
>sure and he motioned me to follow him for a few steps. Suddenly, I was
>surrounded by uniformed guards. The suit told me that my "action was no
>longer wanted." At first I thought it was a joke or simply a mistake, but
>he made it clear that it was not. He demanded my driver's license and I
>asked what he needed it for, considering that he already knew my name. He
>replied that if I did not turn over my license, he would take it from me. I
>wasn't exactly in a position to refuse his request. He then demanded the
>names and addresses of the people with me. I told him it was none of his
>f...ing business.
>
>My wife tried to walk over and ask what was going on, but was refused access
>to me. I continued to press for an explanation and was told only "you know
>why we're doing this." The suit pulled out a card and copied information
>from my license. He then had the uniforms escort me a few yards away while
>he made a phone call, all the time keeping my wife away from me. He walked
>back up and read me the trespass act, which I assume you are very familiar
>with, and asked me to sign the card. I demanded to know why this was
>happening; he refused to answer any questions, saying only that I would be
>escorted from the premises and arrested should I set foot on any Park Place
>owned property ever again. I refused to sign the card and again demanded an
>explanation or a phone number where I could reach someone with more
>authority. A security supervisor handed me a card and told me to call the
>casino manager on Monday if I wanted an explanation. I was then escorted to
>the valet parking area and kept surrounded until the car showed up.
>
>On Tuesday, I called the casino and was connected with the casino shift
>manager who had been on duty during my dismissal. I explained that I simply
>wanted to know the reasons why I had been treated this way. He told me that
>my ejection was a "management decision" and was irrevocable for life. When
>I kept pressing, he assured me that further inquiries would get me nowhere.
>I asked if I would be allowed to shop in the Forum or eat at Caesar's
>restaurants. He said I would be arrested for criminal trespass if I set
>foot on any of their properties. I mentioned that I had a reserved room and
>a booth at an August law enforcement conference at the Las Vegas Hilton that
>was already paid for. He again told me that I would be arrested if I
>attempted to enter the property.
>
>I have never had a bad experience in many years gambling at Caesar's. I had
>no problems with casino personnel or other players during play that day. I
>did not drink alcohol. I was not cheating in any manner. I can only assume
>that security somehow pegged me as a card counter. Other than a continuing
>chain of letters toward the top of Park Place Entertainment, I am not sure
>how to proceed. I am not concerned about playing in their casinos again; I
>am concerned about being placed in a database of "cheaters" and being barred
>from other places. I am also concerned about the Harrah's takeover of Park
>Place as Harrahs is one of my local casinos. Will this limit my options
>even further?
>
>I'm sure this is a textbook case of mild casino harassment. I have tried to
>give a complete transcription of events and would appreciate if you have any
>questions, comments or suggestions. Four days later, the entire event seems
>like a dream. But I don't relish the possibility of no place to play on my
>planned January Vegas trip. Once again, thank you for your time. I wish
>you and your posters well, especially at Caesar's.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>[signature deleted]
 

john

Well-Known Member
sounds about right

Sounds like my encounter. Although, they didn't force me or try to get me to sign a card. It is unbelievable. The Mayor could probably add more about it than I could since he has probably had more experience with it but it is amazing that casinos worry about hundreds of dollars being bet when they make millions or maybe billions every year. I don't get it other than it is ego. It is them saying "I've got power here not you". I was backed off a couple times on this last trip, too but they weren't as traumatizing. I'm getting to the point where I'm looking behind me every 10 minutes for the security guards and managers and also looking at my watch every 15 minutes.
 

Royam

Well-Known Member
Ploppy idea

To the sender of the letter,

I have absolutely no casino experience, so take my advice for what it is worth: not much. Still I find this barring amazing and would like to tell you what I would do in your situation, based on common sense.

From your letter, I conclude you do not count at all, just apply basic strategy. What is more, you lost $3,000 during this evening. In short, you are the perfect customer for a casino: confident enough with your game to play greens and lose a considerable amount of money. Contrary to counters who want as little publicity as possible, you should not fear to press the issue and have your play reviewed based on the tapes. All it could show is that you're NOT a counter and that the barring was a regrettable mistake. If you want to pursue this option, you should do it immediately (most casinos rewrite tapes after 2-3 or 7 days).

Just my ploppy opinion, others will probably give you better advice.

Royam
 

Tom

Well-Known Member
very strange

He thinks they may have pegged him as a card counter,but earlier says he only plays basic. I guess he means they thought he was counting cards. He also mentions nothing of bet spread. If he was only flat betting and still got kicked out then something very strange is going on.
 

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Fug em! I would have grabbed the cash and

made the dash. Dont give them any thing. If they grab you and man handle dont fight back or start freaking out. Its all on camera. Ask for the police. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANYTHING!!!! DONT ANSWER THIER QUESTIONS. ASK FOR THE POLICE THREATON THEM WITH CRIMINALK CHARGES AND A LAW SUIT! tHIS GUY WAS A FOOL HE SHOULD HAVE GRABBED HIS CHIPS AND WALKED TO THE DOOR.
 

Radar

Active Member
Do We Have a Resident Attorney Here?

I would think the gentlemen would have grounds of possible "harrasment".

He did nothing illegal, was not cheating, minding his own business, was not disruptive in any manner, obviously not counting and playing by the rules. Isn't that supposedly "what's expected" of casino patrons? What is the difference in this or someone going to a movie sitting down with a bag of popcorn and just getting ready to watch the movie when management comes up to them and tells them they are barred?

Now you, me, and others here would NEVER press this, but since he doesn't count, he has nothing to lose to pursue it. He cannot be pegged a "counter" because he is NOT one and the tapes would clearly show that.

I would think a publicity campaign to "expose" Caesars for harassing their customers would do some good (maybe even for us). If the media gets a hold of it and his attorney presses for a tape review and can prove he DIDN'T count, perhaps, these casinos will think twice before 86ing someone they THINK is a counter. At the very least if they are not TOTALLY convinced, they may let us play longer! ;)

I agree that if he does pursue it, he should act quickly to stop the destruction of the tapes.

My 2-cents worth!
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Not a Lawyer but ...

He was asked to leave. The casino was with in it's rights. Card counting is not illegal, yet counters are asked to leave and barred for the same reason -- ie. the casino doesn't need a reason. The casino is private property. The owner of private property can ask any one to leave, at any time, for no reason.

They do not have the right to see ID. The guy's comment of "show me your ID or I will take it from you" was a BLUFF. If he had known what he was doing, he wouldn't have shown ID. If they did try to forcibly take his ID -- then a lawyer would have a case. !!!$$$ Ka-Ching $$$!!!

It all might be moot anyways. Harrahs might be buying out Ceasars, so it won't be CZR property anymore.

Don't worry about going to other casino properties. You aren't required to do a bunch of Wall Street Research to see what corporate entity owns what casino. Go to the other casinos, and if you are just there for a convention, they aren't going to care. If they do ask you to leave, then leave. In the case of paying for a convention booth and being asked to leave -- again the phrase !!!$$$ Ka-Ching $$$!!! comes to mind, since they will be violating their contract they entered into in regards to the convention.
 
Very true

A place like that isn't going to try to forcibly take ID from someone. I'd tell them to go fornicate themselves, spit on the floor, and leave.
 

SammyBoy

Well-Known Member
LTC

I think you should cut the guy some slack. The last thing most players (ploppies) ever expect is to be treated the way he was. I'm sure the guy was in total shock and thought it was all a big mistake.
 

eyesfor21

Well-Known Member
happens all the time write a letter

Write a letter to the Las Vegas review paper,,,it may get posted
A friend of mine got told to leave for having a basic
strategy card on the table(a non counter too rookie) and was told
to leave the casino.
Another friend who does not even know basic was told to
leave a large strip casino,but he was up around 2500 at the
time.
It does happen a lot,its unreal,it should be our job to make this
known to the public.
 

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Sorry about calling a Begginer a fool!

I still would have took the cash and said ADIOS mother's! Your right we should be out educating the public!!!!!!!!!!! Fugging greedy casinos!
 

Seeker

Member
A lawyer's good news and bad news

I'm not licensed in Nevada, but from what I've read, I think that Nevada law is bad news for our correspondent. The casino can bar him without a good reason, as long as it's not for one of the bad reasons established by antidiscrimination laws (race, religion, etc.).

As other posters have noted, they didn't actually rough him up. Cutting him off from his possessions up in his hotel room might be actionable, but I gather that his wife was still allowed onsite, so I assume he actually recovered all his stuff. Similarly, the goon's threat to take his ID from him might be deemed improper, but the player didn't actually suffer any significant damage from that.

The leading authority on stuff like this is Bob Nersesian:

Robert A. Nersesian, Esq.
Nersesian & Sankiewicz
528 South Eighth Street
Las Vegas, Nevada 89118
Telephone: 702-385-5454

The player might try contacting Bob to see if there's a basis for legal action, but I wouldn't be very optimistic. Bear in mind that the Nevada judicial system is a wholly owned subsidiary of the casino industry.

Now, here's the good news: The Las Vegas Hilton is no longer a Caesars property. The sale to the new owner (Colony Capital) was completed last month, so I'd guess that Caesars is no longer automatically sharing information about barrings with LVH. The player shouldn't have any trouble at his trade show.
 

gehrig

Well-Known Member
this event might pose the question...

why do some players and not others, get the 86 ?

i suggest that it's a meld of a *particular* pitstiff or shift boss' inadequate training, and the player's poor skills. the first should indicate the overall level of skill of those game protection employees. the latter, playing without ejection, is learned on the job. i enjoy playing the 'stiffs as much as the game itself.
 

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Learning to understand gambling law!

Actually the casino or any legitimate licensed business can deny anyone access to their property/business with out a reason. This is like a man's(owner) house is his castle law. A person has the right to eject any one from his house who has no legal right to be there. A business has the right to deny anyone from doing business with them as well.

The big issue is that the home owner/business/casino need not have a reason. If they have a reason for ejection then the liability thermometer starts to rise. So it is better that they just ask you to leave and not provide the reason. In effect the casino has a right to be silent when you demand a reason.

There are certain reasons for ejection that predominatly have to do with criminal associations/black listing that the casinos must follow or they them selves can be in trouble with the state gambling commission.

If a person can prove that there is a reason for expulsion then there might be chance of liability. Since the state of Nevada and the casino's ability to provide a huge tax base any such cases will be tough to proceed with. With all liabilty cases you must show real damage. Good luck in showing that your feelings and your ability to earn a living off of the casino's teete was hurt when you were trespassed.

In conclusion if they throw you out because you are of a certain race, creed, etc. and you can prove it then you will have a case. Just becuse the gorilla security gaurd called you a worthless piece of doodoo thieving card counter. Well this is not a legal discrimination.

It is a shame that no legal experts have explored into the fact that the games licensed and approved by the state have to have one basic factor "THE CHANCE FOR THE GAMBLER TO WIN". If the game does not have this then how could it be game of chance. THE RECENT MOVE BY THE CASINOS IS TO PUSH THE BELIEF THAT GAMBLING IS ENTERTAINMENET AND NOT CHANCE could be dangerous precedent. Many gambling law makers could believe this as well.

There maybe a chance for legal experts to show that the casinos are breaking the law by thier obvious use of new games which lower the chances to win with the recent changes in the games of BJ to wit: superfun21, ccm, fake two decks, etc.. These changes improve the casino's take and lessen the chance of winning. Entertainment should stay in the showrooms and leave the gambling to us!

As always my ignorant and humble oppinion. LTC P.S. I'm probably wishing for a miracle.
 
Is this Recent?

If this occurred within the past week or so, this may be overzealous pit personnel trying to impress the new Harrah's mgmt that they are big time counter catchers. Most of these guy in the pits are "juiced in" and now need to prove their worth to new mgmt.
This usually gets them noticed to a point where they will stand out (for good or bad) from the other employees.
I think our victim may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Too bad, but that's the way this crap works sometimes.
 

wong out

Well-Known Member
fishy

Hate to say it but I dont buy the story. Of course it could very well be true and sounds authentic but c'mon a guy playing green and basic strategy and losing 3K while wife plays roulette and they treat him like a high rolling counter? They ar pretty dumb but there are enough guys who cant count in the room and I cant imagine that they would be fooled. Only other thing is maybe they thought that he was up to something abit risque like trying to peek at the dealers hold card or something?

wong out - who knows but sounds fishy to me
 
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