Appropriate Countermeasures

Ed Tice

Member
Lets take a *hypothetical* case.

Lets say that somebody was living in a place where all of the casinos were really bad. (6D, D9, DAS, RSA, ENHC, Cheating Shuffling Machine), admission charge, no free drinks, and no comps. Obviously nobody who wasn't stupid would want to play in this casino! But there would certainly be opportunity to organize 'private' blackjack games. (Again we are being completely hypothetical here).

Lets say that these 'private' games wanted to offer a really good experience to the customer so they set up the rules very liberally. (2D, Double any hard hand, DAS, RSA, ENHC) and give players at minimum, somthing to drink.

The organizers will also be upfront abou the house advantage (0.25%) and even print the correct basic strategy on the Baize!

They want to be fairly liberal about advantage play and don't want to bar card counters or rough them up. However, the casino does want to limit lossed due to advantage play to be somwhere around 15% of table drop.

As the LV losses due to AP are estimated at around 8% of table drop, it would seem that the organizers aren't taking a huge risk. However, given the private nature of the games, it is anticipated that the quality of play from the non-counters will be much higher than in a real casino, so even though the game is happier to give back a higher %, the total $ given back would have to be lower or the game will run at a heavy loss.

(Assuming that with 0.25% BS that the game only takes an average of 0.5% per player, a single AP playing at 2% advantage could wipe out the take from an entire table. The casinos here get about 8% on average due to the amount of poor play, so really shouldn't worry about anybody with a 2% advantage)

Some thoughts are

(1) Lousy pen. This might make the game not worth the CCs time, but that hasn't stopped aspiring counters from turning the Western and El C. into their training grounds.

(2) HIgher minimums and lower spreads ont the table. Limiting to minimum 25 max 100 again reduces the AP advantage and probably wouldn't make a difference in table drop.

(3) Preferntial shuffles. Although if this were employed there would have to be some compensation to the non-counters. One thought was to preferentially shuffle after a counter places a big bet, but then award something at random to a non-counter at the table (Pushing his losing bet or something) to keep the game fair.

(4) Mid-Shoe entry prohibition/limits. Maybe even if you leave a shoe early you have to sit out the whole next one!.

(5) Limiting wonging in. If your at the game, your at the table. If you're at the table, your playing.

(6) Refusing to deal to counters if they are the only one at the table.

(7) Charing an admission fee and (liberally) selectively waiving it.

(8) Refusing to serve the APs drinks!

Any other ideas?

Things that would not be considered: barrings, physical abuse, cheating shuffling machines, preferrential shuffles without compensation to the non-counters.
 

learning to count

Well-Known Member
I know I am dumb but what is the purpose of your discussion???? Are you setting up an illegal casino or starting a discussion on casino tactics to harass Advantage Players?????????????????????????????????/
 

AlexD30

Member
You need professional HELP!

What is your point? - Are you some kind a NUT?

No card counter ever gets 2% edge over the house in the long run. What are you talking here makes no sense whatsoever. Better mind your own business and don't get involved in giving advice around because you have no clue.

AlexD30
 

Ed Tice

Member
Re: You need professional HELP!

Well, Im certainly willing to keep my mouth shut anywhere that my comments arent wanted. But the Mayor did let my post past moderation. If he ever censors me or asks me to leave, I will do so gracefully. If nobody answers my post, I wont press the issue.

Perhaps somebody can help me with the numbers then. Assuming that the casino takes no counter-measures and seems to have a desire to spit out money like a well-stocked ATM gone defunct, what percentage could you hope to obtain?

I know only the basics of counting and betting and a fair amount of the mathematics and have a reasonable math background. I have heard numbers higher than 2% for teams that can combine advantage play techniques.

Lets say you had a team of good counters, the casino would let you take notes on the dealt cards, do calculations on paper, shuffle track, key card (and signal verbally), and the game was dealt down to the very last card, how much of a percentage do the math experts here think the team could get?

Of course this doesnt exist in any casino. But if you set up a game and made it a free-for-all for advantage players, I imagine you would go broke.

Ed
 

Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
"Some thoughts are:

(1) Lousy pen. This might make the game not worth the CCs time, but that hasn't stopped aspiring counters from turning the Western and El C. into their training grounds. "

Buzzz.... Your first thought is totally wrong.

I agree with the above posters.

HOWEVER, who says that APs cost LV 8% of the BJ drop? Where did that figure come from? Do you have any concept of what 8% of the BJ drop in Las Vegas is? I bet the people who are using this 8% figure are the same people trying to sell some service to the casinos to supposedly stop it.
 

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: You need professional HELP!

Ed you need to read Professional Black jack, Stanford Wong, and the read BJ Attack, Don Schlesinger. These two bboks are the foundation of modern card counting. The latter is brainy but can be deciphered. Read them and then you will understand how it works. I welcome your questions. Try to be clear and try not to be so sneaky about finding out the "SECRETS" of card counting. Maybe if you learn how to do it you will come over to the good side and leave the dark side of the force. Oh and don't bull $h1t us. Ask an honest question and you will get an honest answer.
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
>(1) Lousy pen. This might make the game not worth the CCs time, but that hasn't stopped aspiring counters from turning the Western and El C. into their training grounds.

The Western and the El C. still have outstanding pen, but it is highly dealer dependent, plus you will get kicked out moments after your first blackjack if you show much real skill

>(2) HIgher minimums and lower spreads ont the table. Limiting to minimum 25 max 100 again reduces the AP advantage and probably wouldn't make a difference in table drop.

Not a bad idea. But then the simple progressionists (losers) will whine -- and finding a table for your exact bet may be problematic.

>(3) Preferntial shuffles.

This is cheating on the part of the casino, IMHO.

>(4) Mid-Shoe entry prohibition/limits. Maybe even if you leave a shoe early you have to sit out the whole next one!.

I have never heard of the "sit out he whole next one" idea -- pity the fool who goes to the bathroom.

>(5) Limiting wonging in. If your at the game, your at the table. If you're at the table, your playing.

Too restrictive on the roaming losers. Many people play a strategy whereby if they lose a few hands at a table, they find another table (I think John Patrick advocates this).

>(6) Refusing to deal to counters if they are the only one at the table.

Hmmm...

>(7) Charing an admission fee and (liberally) selectively waiving it.

These are called comps.

>(8) Refusing to serve the APs drinks!

That already happens -- it is the least of the "heat" we endure.

>Any other ideas?

Yes, how about dealing the same game to us as to others, and let us use our wits to not get caught. That's what it's all about.

I don't think one can fine tune the game/comps/heat to the skill of the player, the people on the floor and management are just not that smart. Games tend to be what they are, and it is up to each advantage player to develop the skills to deal with the circumstances of the given casino

--Mayor
 

Stealth Bomber

Well-Known Member
Ed, you said:

>(4) Mid-Shoe entry prohibition/limits. Maybe even if you leave a shoe early you have to sit out the whole next one!.

Great, now the rest of us won't get to wash our hands either when taking a restroom break for fear we won't get back before the flop of the new shoe.

Ed, don't forget that 99.??% of the players in the world are what makes the casino money. Do you really want them to stand there and wait 10 mins for a new shoe before they can start donating $, just because maybe 1 in every 1000 players is an A P?

Stealth
 

eyesfor21

Well-Known Member
measures

a few top places actually let you jump as high as
you want -
like going from 25 to 500
it doesn't matter which does not really give us more
of an edge,
we know with the count that we can still lose huge
and win huge, as the game has huge swings
In a top bjack book by Ian Anderson,one of the worlds best
he mentions that he was on a two week trip to Vegas and it was
going great until the very last session on the way to
airport when he gave it all back and more. The game uhhh!

I remember the fitz after winning 4 days straight with good pen on
dbl deck and the next day the pit boss comes up to me
and says lets see how much you can win,let it fly///

and I did but it was not really any larger win rate
just bigger swings.

one of the top players in the world who used to
play with Uston mentioned there is a lot more
to playing than counting and knowing all the indices.
ponder than one....
 

Ed Tice

Member
Okay so I wont pursue this topic any further since all it has gotten is for me to be attacked. I am not a casino boss at all.

I live somewhere where everything is controlled by legal cartels to keep supply low and prices high. There is a limit of one casino per city so they are all crap.

So to answer LTC, yes I was considering opening an illegal casino. Now I imagine that a lot of people here wouldn't approve of that, even though I would welcome all of you guys to my casino if I were to do that. The local game is so bad that those who know anything about the game are continuously looking for a decent one. Lots of trips to other parts of the world are generated in order to play at decent places. But all of the ten-splitters dont know any better. And since I wouldn't exactly be able to advertise in the newspaper, I imagine that I would attract only two groups -- "good" ploppies who can play correct BS and counters/other APs. Without the really bad players to pad the profits, especially starting small, it is entirely possible that a few hits by teams could really put the game in trouble.

If I were to open the casino (and if I ever get beyond the "thinking about it" phase, I wont be posting about it anywhere and certainly not with my real name!), I would want to be decent to the APs and let them play. But if the game bankrupts that doesn't help anybody.

Yes I am trying to learn to count (which is why I am here). But given how bad the casinos are here, I have mulled the possibility that there is more money to make opening my own than there is in counting. But I could never open a legal casino and I wont be getting the clueless tourists at my tables. So the table drop would be much lower.

LTC will comment, but I don't think that floating the idea of opening a casino is illegal and didn't think this discussion would be harmful. I wont say any more on the topic.
 

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Okay okay I was hard on you. Well all I can say is "tough"! Your posts were weird and you were playing games. Now you are being honest. No one here will harrange you for being honest. They will go after you for playing games. I welcome your up front style!

The casino business is tough. The heat from the government will come when they find out. There two reasons I can see why they will come after you; 1:It is illegal. 2:They want thier tax share of profits. Now when the thieves and organize crime guys find out about your illegal establishment they will want a piece. Then there are the cheats and sore losers they could be bad for your business if not your health. Casinos exist and have existed because they have the financiel power and muscle to protect themselves.

God luck in this endeavor. I occasionally have a poker game over at the house on sunday nights. Ten dollar buy in, nickle dime, quarter game. Lots of fun. We play Texas Holdem. The pot never goes over ten dollars. Winner takes all. The houes does not make a profit. This fits in with state laws as well. I dont play black jack because of the built in edge for the house. EVen with perfect rules we dont play because it is boring at home. Hey I hope you continue to participate and learn here. Just cut out the bull.
 

eyesfor21

Well-Known Member
Ed, if you want to open an illegal casino

Many people have done this.
Hey its even done in the movies watch: boiler room.

I know a few dealers that ask there badplayers to come over
for
the private bjack parties.

standard rules with small minimums.
 
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