Auto shufflers suck!!

[azbetsgonewild]

more and more casinos here in AZ are adopting the God forsaken Game King continuous shuffling machines, i have never played against a game that felt so rigged in my life(well maybe a couple online sessions felt that way), The only tables they have which are dealt from a shoe are $25 -$50 min bet shoes, sorry but I don't have a couple grand I want to put into play. I have had a couple halfway decent sessions on these shufflers but its just pure luck, overall I would say the average is winning maybe 1 out of 5 hands. One horrible session, I counted 13 losses in a row, not sure what the odds are of that happening but the dealer was simply invinceable!!!

The fun just keeps getting sucked right out of the game, these places keep trying to come up with new ways to get your chips faster and faster, and I like the game less and less.

Also, the only casino here in the Phoenix area that deals from shoes on all tables, i simply have the worst luck possible there, over the course of probably the last 10 sessions I have walked away one time with a profit, other times I was able to accumlate wins no more than 3-4 units. I use the simple + - system for counting, and keep my bets conservative but nothinig seems to work anymore. Of course, they deal from 6 decks, Hit soft 17, and 10 min bet other than one $5 table in the whole joint

4 Decks, S17 is the best game I have played overall, some 2 deck games are decent but the shoe is over by the time you get a chance to get ahead, unfortunately the closest place I can find what I would consider a fair game is in Vegas.

anyways, just kinid of a grumble, i stumbled across this site today and it has a lot of useful informatiion. I will probably sharpen up my skills and head to vegas for a weekend here in a month or two and stay the hell out of these horrible money pits here in the valley in the meantime.

 

[zengrifter]

... i stumbled across this site today and it has a lot of useful informatiion. I will probably sharpen up my skills and head to vegas for a weekend here in a month or two and stay the hell out of these horrible money pits here in the valley in the meantime.

You need to learn basic strategy COLD. Then you can detirmine if you are interested in learning to play with a positive math expectation (ie, card-counting). So lets see if you are even motivated enough to learn basic. zg

 

[azbetsgonewild]

i do know basic stategy cold, i have been a BJ player for 8 years now

i use the simple + - system for counting, but my bankroll is not nearly enough to come out ahead on average especially with $10 min bets

I gave it up for a long time, and its very discouraging to see my efforts be so futile because of the conditions here at the local joints. My future plays will be in a game where its a worthwhile investment, rather than just time and money wasted.

 

[TimeKeeper]

It seems all the casinos on the west coast are bad. There was another person from Arizona who made a post just last week or the week before recieving heat. He recieved heat after being up like $200 dollars. lol. That's pretty bad.

The California casinos aren't any better. They're run by the gov't or something right? They are trying so that the Indians have full control and can have better playing conditions?

 

[azbetsgonewild]

It seems all the casinos on the west coast are bad. There was another person from Arizona who made a post just last week or the week before recieving heat. He recieved heat after being up like $200 dollars. lol. That's pretty bad.

The California casinos aren't any better. They're run by the gov't or something right? They are trying so that the Indians have full control and can have better playing conditions?

Yeah, the casinos here are just good for entertainment purposes only, unless you like counting against the worst possible odds for the game(6 decks, H17), if you want to make money, forget about it. I may go there with 40-50 bucks to have a good time, but I have learned my lesson on going there with more than a couple hundred. The problem is, the table limits and the gameplay is so bad that $50 will be lucky to keep you there for 30 min. I am from the midwest and I used to play mostly at indian casinos that used 6 decks S17 and generuos table limits, and a couple that had 2 deck games, i didn't win all the time but defintely a higher percentage of the time I do here.

california, I don't know, but I have heard that they tax each bet, however i have also heard that as a player you can also be the house, kind of lilke caddy blackjack, I would like to check it out, but i am sure its just a huge scam and not worth investing any money in.

 

[Gregory]

It seems all the casinos on the west coast are bad. There was another person from Arizona who made a post just last week or the week before recieving heat. He recieved heat after being up like $200 dollars. lol. That's pretty bad.

The California casinos aren't any better. They're run by the gov't or something right? They are trying so that the Indians have full control and can have better playing conditions?

That was me and the casino was Cliff Castle. It wasn't so much that I got any heat for being up a little bit as I got more attention than I normally get. But then, I play red chips and having three hundred in red in front of you is mighty impressive looking. Stacks and stacks of chips. Sort of like a wad of dollar bills with a hundred wrapped around them.
But the attention did hamper my style since when I had a nice high count I couldn't spread and increase as much as I would have liked. I colored in a bunch of the red for green and black which I pocketed and almost immediately I felt less attention being given to me. Go figure.
Cliff Castle has all the standard 6D rules:
http://www.cliffcastlecasino.net/ccc_pdf/Blackjack%20bro%20sml.pdf (Archive copy)
Fortunately, no CSM's in sight so far.

 

[azbetsgonewild]

what idiots, I read that story. Since when does a casino worry about someone betting $10 per hand?? You should have just played how you wanted, the worst they can do is throw you out then if they do make a media story out of it.:cool2:

 

[tedloc]

Auto shuffle

I may be in the minority with my opinion but here it is. If you are NOT a card counter or CSM's are the only game in town, it is not as bad as you think. Every game has a slight edge built in. Let's assume the edge is .05% for the house. What that means is, on the first hand out of the shoe, that is the edge (very slight). After the cards come out, the edge changes with a + or - count. If you don't count, then you may not realize the house edge is going up. If you raise your bets as it goes up, you will be losing your money at a faster rate. On a brand new deck, you are a 101/100 underdog. On a CSM, you are getting close to a brand new deck on every hand (some cards do not reshuffle). If you watch the cards on the hand that is just played and there are a lot of high or low cards on the table, then you can alter your next bet, because those cards will not reshuffle. Let's say 6 hands are delt and there were no 10's on the table. By taking those 15-20 non tens out of the deck, the next hand out of the CSM will be a little more positive because those cards were not included in the shuffle. Now instead of the odds being 101/100, you will now be a slight favorite. My contention is: A brand new deck or close to it, is as close to an even bet as a non-card conter can expect.

I would be interested in feedback.

 

[Mikeaber]

This has come up before on the forum here. In reality, a pure Basic Stratey player actually does have a very VERY small improvement in house edge on a CSM vs normally shuffled decks. It's NOT an advantage over the house, but the house's edge is very slightly less favorable to the house. You can read up on the details as to how this was determined over on www.wizardofodds.com.

I may be in the minority with my opinion but here it is. If you are NOT a card counter or CSM's are the only game in town, it is not as bad as you think. Every game has a slight edge built in. Let's assume the edge is .05% for the house. What that means is, on the first hand out of the shoe, that is the edge (very slight). After the cards come out, the edge changes with a + or - count. If you don't count, then you may not realize the house edge is going up. If you raise your bets as it goes up, you will be losing your money at a faster rate. On a brand new deck, you are a 101/100 underdog. On a CSM, you are getting close to a brand new deck on every hand (some cards do not reshuffle). If you watch the cards on the hand that is just played and there are a lot of high or low cards on the table, then you can alter your next bet, because those cards will not reshuffle. Let's say 6 hands are delt and there were no 10's on the table. By taking those 15-20 non tens out of the deck, the next hand out of the CSM should be a little more positive because those cards were not included in the shuffle. Now instead of the odds being 101/100, you will now be a slight favorite. My contention is: A brand new deck or close to it, is as close to an even bet as a non-card conter can expect.

I would be interested in feedback.

 

[Brutus]

Go to the Fort for shoe games!

Casino Arizona has the $25 shoe, no mid shoe entry probs. low heat

or, you could save up your jack and hit the nevada casinos!

 

[Sonny]

There has been some really interesting stuff in this thread. I would like to add just a few of my opinions.

First of all, we should indicate that we are talking about continuous shufflers (CSMs) not auto-shufflers (ASMs). After all, ASMs can be a nice tool that increase the win rate of a good BJ player. Some players even seek out ASMs in order to increase their advantage or to take advantage of certain promotions. Although they do eliminate many advantage play opportunities, they are not completely without merit.

CSMs are just plain crap. Although they do reduce the house edge slightly (as described by The Wizard) they also speed up the game quite a bit which increases the house’s win rate. I believe that the faster game more than eliminates the small advantage gained from playing at a CSM.

As far as the games here in California, most of them are crap. However, there are a few gems hidden in the SoCal area. I have found very deeply dealt pitch games and incredibly trackable shuffles which offer much more than a 2% advantage. Vegas definitely has many more quality games to choose from, but there is still gold in the California hills if you dig around enough.

-Sonny-

 

[azbetsgonewild]

I may be in the minority with my opinion but here it is. If you are NOT a card counter or CSM's are the only game in town, it is not as bad as you think. Every game has a slight edge built in. Let's assume the edge is .05% for the house. What that means is, on the first hand out of the shoe, that is the edge (very slight). After the cards come out, the edge changes with a + or - count. If you don't count, then you may not realize the house edge is going up. If you raise your bets as it goes up, you will be losing your money at a faster rate. On a brand new deck, you are a 101/100 underdog. On a CSM, you are getting close to a brand new deck on every hand (some cards do not reshuffle). If you watch the cards on the hand that is just played and there are a lot of high or low cards on the table, then you can alter your next bet, because those cards will not reshuffle. Let's say 6 hands are delt and there were no 10's on the table. By taking those 15-20 non tens out of the deck, the next hand out of the CSM will be a little more positive because those cards were not included in the shuffle. Now instead of the odds being 101/100, you will now be a slight favorite. My contention is: A brand new deck or close to it, is as close to an even bet as a non-card conter can expect.

I would be interested in feedback.

Well, just speaking from experience, with those machines its not uncommon to go on a 10+ hand losing streak, but it seems very difficult to win more than 2 hands in a row. I am not speaking from just playing them a few times, but rather hundreds of times. IMO, i do not trust the machine, so I even if I am not counting I still stick to a shoe game. Overall, expect to lose your money with those machines, its just pure luck, and overall bad luck in most cases. I see those machines clean out entire tables hand after hand. I don't like them, but if I don't want to bet $15-$25 min per bet, then you have no choice but to go to the CSM's or drive all the way to the Fort.

IMO, all the blackjack in this state is a joke anyways. I would prefer better odds.

 

[tribute]

I don't care for CSM's either, but a basic strategy player should have only one gripe. They speed up the game, therefore you lose your money faster. I did get lucky one time and got on a winning streak on a CSM. As far as auto shufflers (ASM's), I will play on them all day.

 

[Brutus]

Last time I played a csm, no 7's came out.

 

[golfnut101]

Shuffle Master machines

along the same lines, had a question about Shuffle Master machines. I play at a casino where they open new cards every other day(asked the dealer) I am not experienced enough to know if this is common ? Reason I mention this is the abnormal amount of 'bunches'(for lack of better term) of low cards I witnessed. They deal from a shoe, but shuffle from the Shuffle master machine. So, would this lead to a bit more advantage for the house ? Player beside me received pair of 2's 4x in less than 2 shoes, as well as four 2's in one hand. As, well, the clumps or bunches of low cards together seemed very odd. Hope all this makes sense; I guess my question is: is it common practice to use new cards so often, and do they lead to an advantage, however slight, for the house. Lastly, does the 'Shuffle Master' also lend itself to a slight advantage to the house ?

thnx everyone

 

[tribute]

To my knowledge, only advantage to house is more security. They don't have to worry about shuffle trackers. I don't see how auto shufflers and cards dealt from shoes cause any more magic for the house. Of course, the house will make more money faster due to less down time from dealer hand shuffles. This is based on blackjack always being a negative expectation game for most players. If you are a counter, however, you do want the game dealt faster so you can get more winning hands for your "positive" position.

 

[zengrifter]

That frequency of change is normal, every shift. No extra advantage for house, although IF you are worried about the initial clumping, take a powder during the initial shoe. zg

 

[tedloc]

Think about it...

along the same lines, had a question about Shuffle Master machines. I play at a casino where they open new cards every other day(asked the dealer) I am not experienced enough to know if this is common ? Reason I mention this is the abnormal amount of 'bunches'(for lack of better term) of low cards I witnessed. They deal from a shoe, but shuffle from the Shuffle master machine. So, would this lead to a bit more advantage for the house ? Player beside me received pair of 2's 4x in less than 2 shoes, as well as four 2's in one hand. As, well, the clumps or bunches of low cards together seemed very odd. Hope all this makes sense; I guess my question is: is it common practice to use new cards so often, and do they lead to an advantage, however slight, for the house. Lastly, does the 'Shuffle Master' also lend itself to a slight advantage to the house ?

thnx everyone

Just take a minute and think. If the house was bunching low cards, how do they know how many players will be on the table? Four 2's bunched means 2 each in a head on situation How do they know your not going to have 12, when you hit and get 3 of the 2's? If they bunch 30 low cards, what happens to the high cards?

 

[jimbiggs]

I have had similar experiences as Azbetsgonewild. The cards just don't seem to come out the same from an AS. I thought they were rigged to make the players bust more. I noticed that the cards seemed to come out in clumps or in pairs (Two high cards, two low cards). Played about 10 hours with AS last night. I am no longer superstitous about them. After my first two shoes, I was down $500 spreading $10-130. After my third and fourth shoes I was up $300. All shoes had strong positive counts at the end of the shoe. Played at two different casinos and finished the night up $500. I blew two oportunities to buy insurance, so it should have been around $700. Lesson learned.

Don't show the shuffler any fear, play your game, and take the good with the bad. And stop the dealer verbally when you plan to buy insurance before she checks the hole card.

Edited to add- After rereading the thread, I now see that Azbetsgonewild is talking about CSMs. Whoops. Sorry about that.