Bankroll concept

[p8ntballsk8r]

so say a player can play at the AP level but simply does not have the bankroll to do so. Is it still probable to play without a bankroll but only in counts better than +2 tc. I'm saying walk up to the table, wait for a +2 count or better and start flat betting. Yes I know you are not using you're full advantage, but if you are always playing when you have the advantage, you will win in the long run, right?

 

[21forme]

Unless you lose your bankroll before the long run happens.

 

[la_dee_daa]

you can have a replenishable bankroll and just play when you have enough for that session then when you get money again go play again. all the money doesn't have to be in hand at once

 

[moo321]

If you're short on bankroll, I'd still recommend a large betting spread on a $5 table. Maybe 5-40? You could grind out $10 an hour with a reasonable risk of ruin with a $3k bank.

 

[InPlay]

so say a player can play at the AP level but simply does not have the bankroll to do so. Is it still probable to play without a bankroll but only in counts better than +2 tc. I'm saying walk up to the table, wait for a +2 count or better and start flat betting. Yes I know you are not using you're full advantage, but if you are always playing when you have the advantage, you will win in the long run, right?

You will have to overcome so various factors it's called:

Variance a analysis of variation in an experimental outcome and especially of a statistical variance in order to determine the contributions of given factors or variables to the variance.

Otherwise also know as LUCK!

Good Luck shorty.

 

[blackjack avenger]

It Can Work, Butttt!

you can have a replenishable bankroll and just play when you have enough for that session then when you get money again go play again. all the money doesn't have to be in hand at once

I agree and would add that you would like to play at the same stakes for each session. This plan can work very well especially since most players probably can't play that often anyway.

The smaller your session bankroll the more you need to be prepared for losing session bankrolls.

A potential very negative situation would be playing with small session bankrolls, tapping out early and often and then the expenses of getting to the casino causing you to have a negative expectation.

 

[rukus]

so say a player can play at the AP level but simply does not have the bankroll to do so. Is it still probable to play without a bankroll but only in counts better than +2 tc. I'm saying walk up to the table, wait for a +2 count or better and start flat betting. Yes I know you are not using you're full advantage, but if you are always playing when you have the advantage, you will win in the long run, right?

You will have to overcome so various factors it's called:

Variance a analysis of variation in an experimental outcome and especially of a statistical variance in order to determine the contributions of given factors or variables to the variance.

Otherwise also know as LUCK!

Good Luck shorty.

additionally, if you play by just flat betting only when you have an advantage, your N0 (a measure of how long it takes to overcome one standard deviation or "luck"/variance) will be significantly longer than had you ramped your bet up on those hands you play with an advantage. So even if you only play when you have an advantage, it is in your interest to ramp your bets (even slightly, like 1-3 or 1-4), if only to shrink the amount of time it takes you to get into the long run and overcome any elements of luck or variance.

 

[Sonny]

There are also some good tips for playing with a small bankroll in the FAQ thread.

-Sonny-

 

[Kasi]

so say a player can play at the AP level but simply does not have the bankroll to do so. Is it still probable to play without a bankroll but only in counts better than +2 tc. I'm saying walk up to the table, wait for a +2 count or better and start flat betting. Yes I know you are not using you're full advantage, but if you are always playing when you have the advantage, you will win in the long run, right?

I like the idea - you can get by with fewer units in a roll and flat-bet an amount much higher than your unit might otherwise be.

Up to you to figure how much you want to bet and when for what game for how long with how much roll etc because, as you see, there are lots of different suggestions.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Yep

additionally, if you play by just flat betting only when you have an advantage, your N0 (a measure of how long it takes to overcome one standard deviation or "luck"/variance) will be significantly longer than had you ramped your bet up on those hands you play with an advantage. So even if you only play when you have an advantage, it is in your interest to ramp your bets (even slightly, like 1-3 or 1-4), if only to shrink the amount of time it takes you to get into the long run and overcome any elements of luck or variance.

I agree 100%

 

[zengrifter]

so say a player can play at the AP level but simply does not have the bankroll to do so. Is it still probable to play without a bankroll but only in counts better than +2 tc. I'm saying walk up to the table, wait for a +2 count or better and start flat betting. Yes I know you are not using you're full advantage, but if you are always playing when you have the advantage, you will win in the long run, right?

How many units would you br starting with? zg

 

[Kasi]

additionally, if you play by just flat betting only when you have an advantage, your N0 (a measure of how long it takes to overcome one standard deviation or "luck"/variance) will be significantly longer than had you ramped your bet up on those hands you play with an advantage. So even if you only play when you have an advantage, it is in your interest to ramp your bets (even slightly, like 1-3 or 1-4), if only to shrink the amount of time it takes you to get into the long run and overcome any elements of luck or variance.

Well, if you only play hands at TC+2 or higher, whether you flat-bet or spread 1-4 will be a significant reduction in N0 compared to spreading like crazy in play-all.

But I don't think there's necessarily a huge differance between 1-2 and 1-4. What might change is your unit size - like maybe it might be $100-200 but then it might be $75-$300 with same risk. Probably a flat bet would be >$100. And you wouldn't be making the same unit increases at the same counts either.

I guess ultimately each way is a little different way to bet one's money. But flat-betting might require the smallest number of units in a roll while keeping ROR the same if roll is a major consideration.

But, heck, bottom-line as always, whatever you decide to do with your money, decide ahead of time, know what to expect and then just do it lol.

Like my mother said, do as I say, don't do as I do :laugh:

 

[rukus]

But I don't think there's necessarily a huge differance between 1-2 and 1-4. What might change is your unit size - like maybe it might be $100-200 but then it might be $75-$300 with same risk. Probably a flat bet would be >$100. And you wouldn't be making the same unit increases at the same counts either.

I guess ultimately each way is a little different way to bet one's money. But flat-betting might require the smallest number of units in a roll while keeping ROR the same if roll is a major consideration.

i think you kinda just answered your own statement if it's even possible to do that

we were comparing flat betting vs bet ramping, and if your playing by wonging in at say +2, i think a 1-4 ramp is very doable.

now, you can use either flat betting or bet-ramping to maintain a desired ROR for a given bankroll in DOLLARS. the whole point is that flat betting vs ramping just determines your "unit" size and thus the number of units available for a given BR size in dollars, as you pointed out in your post. BUT we are never interested in preserving/growing our "units", we are interested in preserving/growing our BR in dollars, so the number of units available is kind of a non-issue. what i'm getting at is that whether playing by flat betting or ramping you can achieve a similar ROR by sizing your unit properly as you agree above.

BUT (to the crux of the issue!) by ramping your bets (even if your "unit" size is now smaller than the flat bet "unit" size), you can achieve the "long run" faster. take for instance a 75% pen, good rules 6Der - if you flat bet while wonging in/out at +2, your N0 is probably somewhere around 350 hours. now if you ramp your bets from 1-4, even though your unit size probably drops by 10-50% (depends on how optimally you ramp your bets), your N0 probably drops to right around 250 hours. So, just by ramping, while maintaining the same ROR for a given BR in dollars, you have cut a standard measure of the long run by right around 100 hours. That looks mighty good to me!

EDIT: even while playing in negative EV situations (say, wonging in/out at -2), if you spread enough, like 1-12, you can achieve a lower N0 than with flat betting while wonging in/out at +2!

 

[Kasi]

BUT (to the crux of the issue!) by ramping your bets (even if your "unit" size is now smaller than the flat bet "unit" size), you can achieve the "long run" faster. take for instance a 75% pen, good rules 6Der - if you flat bet while wonging in/out at +2, your N0 is probably somewhere around 350 hours. now if you ramp your bets from 1-4, even though your unit size probably drops by 10-50% (depends on how optimally you ramp your bets), your N0 probably drops to right around 250 hours. So, just by ramping, while maintaining the same ROR for a given BR in dollars, you have cut a standard measure of the long run by right around 100 hours. That looks mighty good to me!

Good discussion I think and I think we're saying the same thing. Anyway, I don't disagree with anything you said

Like I just go by stuff in Don's book and to get to a specific example, Table 10.47, a 4.5/6 S17 DAS with LS game, his 1-4 spread is $100-$400 with a 100 unit roll and 204 hours to N0. With a 1-2 spread it's a $125-$250 spread with an 80 unit roll and 222 hours so not much difference between 1-2 and 1-4. I'd guess a flat-spread might be a 67 unit roll and just bet $150 and have 276 hours to N0. All with same risk but sacrificing win rate exactly like you say - the guy would have to play an extra 50-70 hours to reach N0 but that's only because his win rate is lower. His $ Stan Dev per hour would be about the same with any of the spreads.

So a guy with a small roll might be able to flat-bet table min at +2 but not have the roll to support a 1-4 spread. Also, like you say, he may find it harder/awkward to make the proportional bets with small units maybe going from $100 to $125 is a little more natural than going from $10 to $12.50 like the 1-3 and 1-4 betters would be in this example so flat-betting avoids that.

Wow can I make a mountain out of a mole-hill or what lol.

Guess 21forme had the best answer - cutting thru the layers of BS and giving the concise clear answer such a silly question deserved