zengrifter
Banned
... and other data, UBZen looks like the best balance between power and ease. zg
Based on that chart...
- Thread starter zengrifter
- Start date
Thanks zg
As you say, Unb. Zen 11 seems to be a good balance between efficiency and simplicity. Based on this chart, Zent count might even be a bit better, but also significantly more complicated, for a reason not apparent when reading this chart (maybe a side-count?).
I'll try to read more about the different systems before I keep training because this is not very efficient to learn a new system every week!
I will receive a bunch of books to read next weekend.
Royam
As you say, Unb. Zen 11 seems to be a good balance between efficiency and simplicity. Based on this chart, Zent count might even be a bit better, but also significantly more complicated, for a reason not apparent when reading this chart (maybe a side-count?).
I'll try to read more about the different systems before I keep training because this is not very efficient to learn a new system every week!
I will receive a bunch of books to read next weekend.
Royam
Automatic Monkey
Banned
What I don't like about unbalanced counts
I've experimented with them, and although they have some advantages (like higher average BC due to not having the need to fudge the numbers for "balance") they have a few disadvantages too. Like accuracy of index numbers for one- unless you want to learn all new numbers for 4, 6, and 8 deck shoes there are going to be inaccuracies porting your indexes from one type of game to another. You're also going to have difficulties in determining a Wong-out point if you Wong, and powerful add-ons like shuffle tracking are going to have to be heavily worked to make them usable with an unbalanced count. So I'd rather just do the division (which I find to be easy) and not have to worry about any of that other stuff. My HO2 system can be used with any multideck S17 DAS game with no modifications at all.
I've experimented with them, and although they have some advantages (like higher average BC due to not having the need to fudge the numbers for "balance") they have a few disadvantages too. Like accuracy of index numbers for one- unless you want to learn all new numbers for 4, 6, and 8 deck shoes there are going to be inaccuracies porting your indexes from one type of game to another. You're also going to have difficulties in determining a Wong-out point if you Wong, and powerful add-ons like shuffle tracking are going to have to be heavily worked to make them usable with an unbalanced count. So I'd rather just do the division (which I find to be easy) and not have to worry about any of that other stuff. My HO2 system can be used with any multideck S17 DAS game with no modifications at all.
a few questions
What does it mean unbalanced ? is it that the Unb. Zen 11 has a total of + 4 when you count through a deck, as opposed to Zen Count for instance who would be balanced (0 total)?
The problems you're talking about (lower index correlation, wonging issue, etc.) refer to the fact that you're using numbers that were initially made for other systems? If yes, are there not equivalent numbers for all systems? If so, a beginner would just have to learn the right set of indexes that fits with his system, no?
Then, what is the "division" you're talking about?
And finally, how does the Hi-Opt II work? It has an ace side-count, right?
Many questions, sorry, but still try to have the big picture and see what system to learn.
First I read about Hi-Low with an ace side count. I found it rather tricky to keep track of the aces.
Then I read about the Halves Count. I trained for at least 2-3 hours (like 4 or more sessions of 30 min) and still do not always get the right count when I count the cards 2 at a time, although I am not quick yet (takes me like 45 sec to go through a deck). Not saying I'm getting discouraged, just that maybe this is not the right system for me as I am learning pretty slowly. I prefer to try to find the right system and not learn too many and mix up everything!
Royam
What does it mean unbalanced ? is it that the Unb. Zen 11 has a total of + 4 when you count through a deck, as opposed to Zen Count for instance who would be balanced (0 total)?
The problems you're talking about (lower index correlation, wonging issue, etc.) refer to the fact that you're using numbers that were initially made for other systems? If yes, are there not equivalent numbers for all systems? If so, a beginner would just have to learn the right set of indexes that fits with his system, no?
Then, what is the "division" you're talking about?
And finally, how does the Hi-Opt II work? It has an ace side-count, right?
Many questions, sorry, but still try to have the big picture and see what system to learn.
First I read about Hi-Low with an ace side count. I found it rather tricky to keep track of the aces.
Then I read about the Halves Count. I trained for at least 2-3 hours (like 4 or more sessions of 30 min) and still do not always get the right count when I count the cards 2 at a time, although I am not quick yet (takes me like 45 sec to go through a deck). Not saying I'm getting discouraged, just that maybe this is not the right system for me as I am learning pretty slowly. I prefer to try to find the right system and not learn too many and mix up everything!
Royam
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Balanced vs. unbalanced
Yes, in an unbalanced count the sum of all the weights of the cards in a deck is not zero. So you start with an initial offset which is particular to the number of decks in the game, and when you've gotten to the bottom of the shoe the running count is zero. The card or cards which create the unbalance act as a sort of clock throughout the shoe.
The problem with the indexes is that the initial running count is going to be different for shoes with different numbers of decks. Let's use the most important index as an example, 16 vs 10.
In Hi-Opt II, in this situation you stand when the count is above 1 and draw when it's below 1. Let's say I'm playing a 4 deck shoe, that would correspond to two 5's being removed from the deck. On an 8 deck shoe it would correspond to four 5's being removed.
We'll use KO as an example, 4 deck shoe, the initial running count will be -16 (I think), removing two 5's gives you a RC of -14. If you are playing an 8 deck shoe, the IRC is -32, and removing four 5's gives you a count of -28. But both situations are supposed to be played the same way when you have a 16 vs. 10. So you have to do a division or learn different sets of numbers for different shoe sizes. Wonging out will be a nightmare, you not only have to do a division but estimate what point you are at in the shoe and if you've been playing an unbalanced count all the time you're not going to be good at doing that. Just my opinion, but I'd rather do the division and deck estimation up front, get used to it, then I'll be just fine from DD to 8D.
Hi-Opt II can be played without a sidecount but it's BC isn't very strong that way. A lot of players use letters to keep track of the aces.
Yes, in an unbalanced count the sum of all the weights of the cards in a deck is not zero. So you start with an initial offset which is particular to the number of decks in the game, and when you've gotten to the bottom of the shoe the running count is zero. The card or cards which create the unbalance act as a sort of clock throughout the shoe.
The problem with the indexes is that the initial running count is going to be different for shoes with different numbers of decks. Let's use the most important index as an example, 16 vs 10.
In Hi-Opt II, in this situation you stand when the count is above 1 and draw when it's below 1. Let's say I'm playing a 4 deck shoe, that would correspond to two 5's being removed from the deck. On an 8 deck shoe it would correspond to four 5's being removed.
We'll use KO as an example, 4 deck shoe, the initial running count will be -16 (I think), removing two 5's gives you a RC of -14. If you are playing an 8 deck shoe, the IRC is -32, and removing four 5's gives you a count of -28. But both situations are supposed to be played the same way when you have a 16 vs. 10. So you have to do a division or learn different sets of numbers for different shoe sizes. Wonging out will be a nightmare, you not only have to do a division but estimate what point you are at in the shoe and if you've been playing an unbalanced count all the time you're not going to be good at doing that. Just my opinion, but I'd rather do the division and deck estimation up front, get used to it, then I'll be just fine from DD to 8D.
Hi-Opt II can be played without a sidecount but it's BC isn't very strong that way. A lot of players use letters to keep track of the aces.
creatureman
Member
KO not too hard
On 6d KO has an exit srategy ex leave if count drops to -22 after 1 deck dealt. and -17 after 2 . Also the important indices are bye the key count and pivot
On 6d KO has an exit srategy ex leave if count drops to -22 after 1 deck dealt. and -17 after 2 . Also the important indices are bye the key count and pivot