Basic Strategy Variation

Hiaslayer

Member
Hi,

I´m quiete new to black jack and got a question about the BS.
Last night I were at the casino and got a 16 vs 10. Of course...hit! BUT
The 16 was 7,2,4,3! First I was not sure if to hit, but I did it and busted with 26. The guy on my left just shook his head and said: "wahnsinn...." ("insane....")

So I asked myselfe, was it right to hit in this case? Do you always follow the BS, even when there is a row of low cards like in my case and the chance to bust is much higher than a 10,6 vs 10?
I finished the "KO book", but there is nothing about such scenarios.

Thanks

Matthias

Edit: Rules: 6 Decks, S17, D9, DAS, RSA, No Surrender, No Peek, Pen 65-70%
 
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Tree

Well-Known Member
I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure that if you've already hit to 16 vs 10 then you pretty much have to keep hitting. Chances are you are going to lose either way unless you get a 5 or lower in that scenario.
 

zengrifter

Banned
Hiaslayer said:
Last night I were at the casino and got a 16 vs 10. Of course...hit! BUT The 16 was 7,2,4,3! First I was not sure if to hit, but I did it and busted with 26.
Hit was correct. zg
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
BS is for your FIRST two cards and the dealers up card. You hit sixteen vs ten when thats your starting hand. You are better off staying on a multi-card sixteen than hitting it, but thats an advanced strategy move.
Let me say again- BS is based on your first two cards and the dealer upcard, not your total hands, just the first two cards. The more cards in your hand, the furthur away from BS you are.
 

Shoofly

Well-Known Member
Hiaslayer said:
Hi,

I´m quiete new to black jack and got a question about the BS.
Last night I were at the casino and got a 16 vs 10. Of course...hit! BUT
The 16 was 7,2,4,3! First I was not sure if to hit, but I did it and busted with 26. The guy on my left just shook his head and said: "wahnsinn...." ("insane....")

So I asked myselfe, was it right to hit in this case? Do you always follow the BS, even when there is a row of low cards like in my case and the chance to bust is much higher than a 10,6 vs 10?
I finished the "KO book", but there is nothing about such scenarios.

Thanks

Matthias

Edit: Rules: 6 Decks, S17, D9, DAS, RSA, No Surrender, No Peek, Pen 65-70%
"Blackjack Bluebook II" by Fred Renzey, pages 89 & 90, outlines "The Rule of 45". which states "Against a 10 up, if your 16 contains any 4's or 5's - Stand."
 

tthree

Banned
Razor thin margins

Hitting 16 v 10, or 12 v 4 are decisions based on razor thin margins. Just seeing the burn card can alter the correct decision. Burning 5 or 4 has the biggest affect on 16 v 10, while burning a 7 or 6 has the largest affect on 12 v 4. They are your best cards and very bad for the dealer in your case.

Basically any of the 4 best cards for your hand removed without a ten value card being removed to balance it is all it takes to alter your decision. The true count decision index is 0 in both these cases. That means stand of the top of the deck but 1 card would swing the decision in either case.
 

Hiaslayer

Member
hm.....ok, BS only for the first two cards. But how do my desicions alter, when there are more than two cards no matter if you are counting or not. I mean, if your count says stay on 16 vs 10 and your 16 consists of more than two cards, this has to affect your desicions, too, right?
I hope you know what I mean.....my english:rolleyes:

Is there a chart or something?

I really got my BS down, but that brought up some confusion

Greets
Matthias
 

ohbehave

Well-Known Member
Playing decisions based on the count are more important than the hand composition. Go with the count-based decision, i.e. index play.
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
BS is right, hit with 16 v 10. As other mentioned 16 v 10 is a coin flip. Knowing only the cards you mentioned (all low cards), you should have stood (if you count), but its a very fine point and not worth getting bent out of shape about, your screwed either way 16 v 10. Just follow BS.
 

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
ohbehave said:
Playing decisions based on the count are more important than the hand composition. Go with the count-based decision, i.e. index play.
This is right. Both - hand composition and counting - try to estimate the distribution of remaining cards in the shoe.
Now you see why counting is superior to hand composition: With hand composition you only take into account information from 3 (or 4) seen cards. With counting, you use information from all seen cards.
 

Hiaslayer

Member
@all: Thanks!

Ok, I think I got it.
From a BS point of view I hit. But maybe at the moment the cards were dealt the count raised, so that I should have stood...who knows.

This was actually my first counting experience and I could keep up with the dealer, but because of the distractions often lost the count while people were talking to me. Need more routine....

I got another question:
Rules: 6 Decks, S17, D9, DAS, RSA, No Surrender, No Peek, Pen 60-70% (depends on the dealer)
Casino Edge +0,46%

I count with the KO system.
Start with +6, Key Count +22, Insurance +29, other BS variations +30

What spread do I need to get near 0,00% edge? How do I calculate that?
 

tthree

Banned
Hiaslayer said:
hm.....ok, BS only for the first two cards. But how do my desicions alter, when there are more than two cards no matter if you are counting or not. I mean, if your count says stay on 16 vs 10 and your 16 consists of more than two cards, this has to affect your desicions, too, right?
I hope you know what I mean.....my english:rolleyes:

Is there a chart or something?

I really got my BS down, but that brought up some confusion

Greets
Matthias
You are using KO as your counting system. There are 2 large problems with this when making this decision using KO. First it is an unbalanced count. The index for balanced count is 0, no TC adjustment required. KO also includes the ace in your count which hurts your count based decisions accuracy while increasing the potential gain made through bet variation.

Just follow the index play for KO. This particular decisions key card is the 5. All counting systems have the five as a bad card to remove. Level 2+ systems has the 5 weighted as a particularly bad card to be removed. The index play would have you losing the least on this hand over time.

KOs strength is its simplicity. There is a lot less involved in using it than other stronger counts. If you are comfortable with the extra work in both preparation and implementation of a stronger system learn a new system. KO is one of the worst for decision based gain, but is fairly strong in gain from betting correlation to your advantage which is where 2/3 of your possible gain can be found.
 

tthree

Banned
Hiaslayer said:
@all: Thanks!


I got another question:
Rules: 6 Decks, S17, D9, DAS, RSA, No Surrender, No Peek, Pen 60-70% (depends on the dealer)
Casino Edge +0,46%

I count with the KO system.
Start with +6, Key Count +22, Insurance +29, other BS variations +30

What spread do I need to get near 0,00% edge? How do I calculate that?
Maybe someone will run the sims necessary to answer your question.

No peek is a bad rule. Maybe one of the gurus of this site can elaborate on how to best minimize the impact of this rule. Proper plays on double downs, splits , insurance and surrender are huge when trying to overtake the casino advantage in blackjack.

Your games penetration is a little weak. If you cannt keep the count til the end of the shoe this becomes a moot point but deep penetration is very important to gains made by a counter in blackjack.
 

Midwestern

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
BS is for your FIRST two cards and the dealers up card. You hit sixteen vs ten when thats your starting hand. You are better off staying on a multi-card sixteen than hitting it, but thats an advanced strategy move.
Let me say again- BS is based on your first two cards and the dealer upcard, not your total hands, just the first two cards. The more cards in your hand, the furthur away from BS you are.
Shad,
what is a good book/resource to check out the strategy on multi-card totals?

this blows my mind because i was under the impression that most BS charts were made for 'total player sum' vs dealer upcard. (i.e this is why some charts show "double/Hit" Soft 16 vs 6 for example-- i took that to mean A5 or A2+3...etc....
 

Tree

Well-Known Member
Midwestern said:
Shad,
what is a good book/resource to check out the strategy on multi-card totals?

this blows my mind because i was under the impression that most BS charts were made for 'total player sum' vs dealer upcard. (i.e this is why some charts show "double/Hit" Soft 16 vs 6 for example-- i took that to mean A5 or A2+3...etc....

I'm with Mid on this one...I was under the same impression.
 

Hiaslayer

Member
tthree said:
Maybe someone will run the sims necessary to answer your question.

No peek is a bad rule. Maybe one of the gurus of this site can elaborate on how to best minimize the impact of this rule. Proper plays on double downs, splits , insurance and surrender are huge when trying to overtake the casino advantage in blackjack.

Your games penetration is a little weak. If you cannt keep the count til the end of the shoe this becomes a moot point but deep penetration is very important to gains made by a counter in blackjack.
I´m from Germany, so "no Peek" is standard. In Tschech Republic the Rules are a bit better (DA2, Surrender, better Penetration 80%), but no Peek also...just Europe ;). But for practice I go to my local casino, which is just six miles away.

tthree said:
Just follow the index play for KO. This particular decisions key card is the 5. All counting systems have the five as a bad card to remove. Level 2+ systems has the 5 weighted as a particularly bad card to be removed. The index play would have you losing the least on this hand over time.

KOs strength is its simplicity. There is a lot less involved in using it than other stronger counts. If you are comfortable with the extra work in both preparation and implementation of a stronger system learn a new system. KO is one of the worst for decision based gain, but is fairly strong in gain from betting correlation to your advantage which is where 2/3 of your possible gain can be found.
Hm...just started being comfortable with KO :rolleyes: Don´t you think I can get the advantage over the casino (in Germany/Tschech) with the KO and a 1-5 spread?

Which other system would you recommend?

Maybe someone could run this sims stuff for me. I´m curious about the casino edge. Here r the complete rules:
Bavaria: 6 Decks, S17, D9, DAS, RSA, No Surrender, No Peek, Pen 60-70%, BJ after Ace-splitting
Tschech: 6 Decks, S17, DA2, DAS, RSA, Surrender, No Peek, Pen 80%, BJ after Ace-Splitting

thanks
 
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steiner

Member
that's right, the czech republic offers better conditions: at least one table with a shoe, surrender (not vs ace), 2€ and 5€ tables.

see also here: http://www.american-chance-casinos.com/

i'm going to visit the casino kleinhaugsdorf!

EDIT:
Tschech: 6 Decks, S17, DA2, DAS, RSA, Surrender, No Peek, Pen 80%, BJ after Ace-Splitting
which casino is that?
 
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tthree

Banned
Hiaslayer said:
I´m from Germany, so "no Peek" is standard. In Tschech Republic the Rules are a bit better (DA2, Surrender, better Penetration 80%), but no Peek also...just Europe ;). But for practice I go to my local casino, which is just six miles away.



Hm...just started being comfortable with KO :rolleyes: Don´t you think I can get the advantage over the casino (in Germany/Tschech) with the KO and a 1-5 spread?

Which other system would you recommend?

Maybe someone could run this sims stuff for me. I´m curious about the casino edge. Here r the complete rules:
Bavaria: 6 Decks, S17, D9, DAS, RSA, No Surrender, No Peek, Pen 60-70%, BJ after Ace-splitting
Tschech: 6 Decks, S17, DA2, DAS, RSA, Surrender, No Peek, Pen 80%, BJ after Ace-Splitting

thanks
Look I just started the long process of advanced education on AP blackjack. I try to only comment where I feel I know enough to be useful. That question is better answered by one of the site experts. Some of the people here know more than I probably ever will!!!

Looking at the rules you posted for your game choices; being paid for a BJ on a split ace is HUGE. We dont have that in our peek games. Penetration is very, very important in choosing a good game. You only reap this benefit if you can count to the end of the shoe. Try to find at least 75% penetration if possible.

The affect of deeper penetration stops being more or less linear by then and any further penetration brings increasing return. If I remember my geometry right the graph of gain versus penetration looks like a hyperbola. Fairly linear on both ends with a big bend in the middle. You want penetration that gets you beyond this bend.
 
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