Bet Ramp

[Jim2]

What kind of longevity can I expect using the following bet ramp:
TC 1 1unit

2 2

3 4

4 8

5 16
I am now using a 1-8 spread and want to know how much more heat I can expect to get using 1-16. The last time I played in Vegas it was mid afternoon, I played for 2 hours using 1-8 and drew no heat whatsoever.

 

[BlackJackHack]

It depends on what type of game you are playing, and at what stakes (red? green? black?). For a green player, spreading with $25 units:

1:16 at pitch games? No more than 15 minutes in many stores, as long as 2 hours at the most liberal. You will get backed off within an hour at most. Using the 1:8 spread you used previously will generate some heat in most pitch games, but you will be able to last an hour or so at most stores.

1:16 at shoe games? 1:16, in mathematical terms, is a pretty reasonable spread for shoe games. You could probably last several hours at most shoe games, but I would still recommend moving around while using such a spread (in AC, this kind of spread will get you some heat after 3 hours). 1:8 will generate little or no heat at shoe games (you will be totally ignored in AC), but it will generate only a very modest profit.

If you play red, the heat will be less than the above. If you play black, it will be much more.

 

[Jim2]

I was playing double deck, with the lucky ladies side bet at the Stardust. I was using $10 as a unit. Using a 1-8 bet spread, I noticed that the only 2 suits in the pit were having an antimated discussion about auto repair. I moved my bet spread from 1-8 to 1-16 for about an hour, with no heat.

"Checks Play" was waved off by the pit without even a glance over at the table. Just curious if I could keep this up.

By the way, you can get old waiting for a count high enough to make the lucky ladies bet. I never came anywhere close to 4 times an hour.

 

[Tom]

That's funny.

I remember the time when Tommy Hyland,(documentary)who happens to be one of the worlds greatest card counters,was trying ON PURPOSE to get barred and having a very diffcult time achieving this. He was betting black and spreading up to $2000 dollars a hand. After playing at several Vegas casinos and not getting barred,he was actually becoming a bit disturbed. He finally got backed off at a sweat joint and went home a happy man.

Sad story for Tommy,but very true. And you're saying betting green will get you barred in 15 minutes at any casino? I dont think so.

You need a new act or might be a kindle to Cellini.

Tom

 

[BlackJackHack]

Re: That's funny.

Where exactly did I say that "betting green will get you barred in 15 minutes at any casino?"

I said that spreading $25-$400 at PITCH GAMES will get you BACKED OFF at SOME casinos in 15 minutes, and at MOST within an hour. Have you been playing any pitch games in Vegas lately, or is your post based largely on a TV documentary?

I'm not familiar with the Hyland documentary. Are you suggesting that one can spread $100-$2000 without heat? Even at shoes, I have my doubts one could last very long with that spread in black (and purple and orange) in Vegas. Even in AC it would draw countermeasures. Try that spread at a pitch game and they'll call in the f***ing national guard!

 

[Tom]

Re: That's funny.

"I'm not familiar with the Hyland documentary. Are you suggesting that one can spread $100-$2000 without heat?"

No I'm suggesting it's more difficult to get barred than you may think,in the real world casinos dont like to barr people.

"Even at shoes, I have my doubts one could last very long with that spread in black (and purple and orange) in Vegas. Even in AC it would draw countermeasures. Try that spread at a pitch game and they'll call in the f***ing national guard!"

Yeah,but dont be surprised if they give you a free suite and tickets for their best show.

"Have you been playing any pitch games in Vegas lately, or is your post based largely on a TV documentary?

If I had a bankroll big enough to bet $2000 I'd quit playing blackjack. Lets face the facts,--- not many of us can bet like this or have experienced what happens when we do. I believe the rules you presented seem to only be your opinion,which most are based on he says,she,says,book says,etc. rather than experience.

Now lets look at the facts,yes, documented facts. Here we have Tommy Hyland who happens to one of the very few greatest and successful card counters to this day. Keep in mind that was also TRYING ON PURPOSE TO GET BARRED. He's probably in the Griffin books and also well known. Do you have his experience or are you a better example of facts than he is, or is it a matter of he says,she says,the internet says?

I'm by no means a high roller but what I can tell you from my own experience when I lived in Vegas, is most newbie card counters are so paranoid over internet gossip that they may create their own heat at casinos . Here's a typical example of what has, on occassion, happened to me at Vegas in the past and how easy it is for exagerating rumors to get started on the internet. >>

I go play a pitch game and in less than 15 minutes the dealer shuffles up on me because I raised to a big bet. Here's my conclusions compared to the newbie KO Kid who visits Vegas twice a year and read about horrific barrings in Vegas on the internet.

Have I been had already?

My conclusion) No, it's just a counter measure from a sweaty pit and dealer,if the dealer keeps bluffing I'm out of here,no big deal.THE END.

KO Kid) Yep,I knew it man ,I'm had...they got me pegged' already, need to make a quick get away before Griffin and the pictures start snapping!!(he nervously looks around while grasping chips,a few fall on the floor,while picking up his chips he notices a security guard {who happens to be on his usual daily walk around the casino} heading his way. KO Kid starts freaking out "Jesus security coming to take me away!!" To make matters worse the phone in the pit rings(it's only the floorman talking about his schedule)then the dealer ask "are you done already,how about coloring up? KO Kid wontt even look or answer the dealer and his only concern now is "Getting the hell out of this casino before the security guard walking in my direction drags me in the backroom." He now fears for his life and wished he'd never taken exlax that morning because it has just kicked in!!! As he walks outside he wipes the sweat off his forehead (and crotch). He leaves his car in the parking and takes a cab because he's heard about the license plate trick casinos use in indentifying him. The cab driver ask KO KID where he's going and the KID tries to calmly reply. "The nearest toilet." KO KID cant wait to get back home to tell his friends about his horrifying experience of being barred and never take exlax before playing blackjack.

Alright,it's a joke but if you think about it,it's kind of a realistic joke. KO KID has done nothing but created his heat. I'm not saying that barrings dont exist, but several may be due to ones own parnoia and heat.

There is no possible way a casino can determine in 15 minutes with absolute certainty that they have detected competent a card counter. It could very well take weeks(not minutes) before a casino is absolutley sure they have a pro at hand. Too many REAL world variables of voodooo beliefs exist. I could not tell you how many times I thought someone at the tables I was playing at may be a card counter because the ploppies happened to get lucky and raise there bets during a plus count. 99.9% of the time they're nothing but Voodoo Kings of Idiotic systems they create. The few sweaty pits that barr someone in 15 minutes are run by total morans not some sharp crew that many will have you think,these guys are idots and costing their casinos money. Imagine that,.. barring ploppies that bet crazy. Ironically these are just the types of gamblers ordinary casinos that dont sweat action, love to have.

Longest post I've ever made on the internet,hope you enjoyed it and found my opnion as well as experiences to be down to earth.

Tom

 

[BlackJackHack]

Re: That's funny.

You should make a distinction between backoffs and barrings - a backoff, which is much more common, is when the house, typically (but not always) very politely, tells you that they would prefer that you not play BJ, but that you're free to play any other game. A barring is when they direct your arse to the nearest exit, sometimes with assistance. I have been backed off about a dozen times, but barred only once (at a Mississippi casino).

I agree with much of your post -- there probably are many newbies, particularly at the red level, who are overly concerned with heat. I do, however, take exception to the notion that heat is illusory, or only reserved for those with the worst acts.

I agree that it takes longer than 15 minutes to be certain a player is counting. The more paranoid stores, however, will act prophylactically, and stop anybody who MIGHT be a counter very quickly. This probably makes little business sense (which is why the first-tier strip casinos will let you play longer than that before passing judgment), but it does happen. I could name about 10 pitch games in Vegas where a $25:$400 spread would result in a CERTAIN backoff in 15 minutes or less. Experienced APs know exactly which places these are. These heaty joints may, in fact, back you off for a $25:$200 spread in thirty minutes to an hour. Even at many of the less heaty joints, a $25:$400 spread will attract a lot of attention, and get you backed off within two hours.

 

[Tom]

Re: That's funny.

Backoff and barring are the same thing in respect to blackjack. If I'm told no more blackjack, then i've been barred from the game,period. However getting kicked out of a casino is an 86'.

You're exagerating about the casinos you say will absolutely barr(backoff)after a mere 15 minutes of action if a player raises his bet to $400. The sweaty ones will usually just shuffle up,at least this is what has happened to me,very few will barr you for playing only 15 minutes,believe it or not.

In all honestly, have you been barred(backed off)at all these casinos you mention with certainty after only 15 minutes? If you have something is terribly wrong and it may not be the casinos.

I do suppose if one where to try in VAIN to get barred(backed off)in less than 15 minutes it could be achieved at some of the small sweaty casinos or maybe ANY casino...just punch the dealer after you lose a big hand.