Bet switching, an AP sign

[aslan]

Putting a bet out before the completion of the round, then pulling it back, is a sign that at least one large casino trains its surveillance team to look for. Oftentimes, a counter will put out a large bet prematurely in anticipation of the next deal, but before the current round is completed. He then see a ton of tens come out to his left, driving the count down to negative, so he grabs his bet and slips minimum bet out. Another time is when the round is over and the AP has a large bet out. The dealer sees that the cut card is like one or two cards away and decides to start a new shoe, which only takes a minute in an ASM game. The AP grabs his large bet, again revealing that he knows more than he is supposed to.

If impatience finds me leaving a large bet out at an inopportune time, I just leave it there, especially if I suspect any heat at all. There's no greater camoflauge if they are actually looking, which of course is usually not the case.

 

[EasyRhino]

Yep, that's a mistake I made quite a lot when I played my first single deck games. And it looks pretty darn dumb when you put out a stack of chips, look flustered by the shuffling motions, then drop down to a minimum bet.

My general recommentation is to WAIT on making your bet until the hand plays out, if there's any chance it would change your bet. If the count is too high or low to matter, then there's no need to wait.

And I agree that leaving a big bet out at the top of the shuffle can be a nice piece of camo, but if it's in a game with frequent shuffles (i.e. single deck or even double) and you get hit by some bad luck, it can be quite expensive.

 

[shadroch]

Wouldn't betting big from the start,and dropping as the count tanks work almost as well? Especially if you are only spreading 1-2 or 1-3.
I've never tried it but its a thought.

 

[aslan]

Wouldn't betting big from the start,and dropping as the count tanks work almost as well? Especially if you are only spreading 1-2 or 1-3.
I've never tried it but its a thought.

I sometimes put a 2X or 3X bet out at the start so that if the count jumps quickly to positive it is easy to follow up with large bets, or if it tanks but I win, I might just leave it on for another go or two at house expense. It's all in the interest of mixing it up for camo, but too much of this can be lethal.

 

[rdorange]

I'm guilty!

Whenever the dealer shuffles, I put out a min bet. No matter what my last bet was. NEW SHOE, NEW BET! I guess I telegraph and send out a signal, huh? :joker:

 

[zengrifter]

Oftentimes, a counter will put out a large bet prematurely in anticipation of the next deal, but before the current round is completed. He then see a ton of tens come out to his left, driving the count down to negative, so he grabs his bet and slips minimum bet out. Another time is when the round is over and the AP has a large bet out. The dealer sees that the cut card is like one or two cards away and decides to start a new shoe, which only takes a minute in an ASM game. The AP grabs his large bet, again revealing that he knows more than he is supposed to.

Major red flag, and the sign of an amateur. zg

 

[zengrifter]

I might just leave it on for another go or two at house expense. It's all in the interest of mixing it up for camo.

at house expense - a misnomer, but you've got the right approach. zg

 

[aslan]

Whenever the dealer shuffles, I put out a min bet. No matter what my last bet was. NEW SHOE, NEW BET! I guess I telegraph and send out a signal, huh? :joker:

Somewhat. But this is not as bad as putting out a large bet prematurely, then switching it to a lower bet when you realize the shoe is over.

 

[aslan]

at house expense - a misnomer, but you've got the right approach. zg

I realized that immediately upon typing it, zg, but I didn't think anyone would be so astute as to catch it. Guilty as charged!:whip:

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Somewhat. But this is not as bad as putting out a large bet prematurely, then switching it to a lower bet when you realize the shoe is over.

Hate it when I do that. Figured how stupid it was only after doing it a half dozen times.

 

[aslan]

Hate it when I do that. Figured how stupid it was only after doing it a half dozen times.

Exactly how I came to the realization, which was later confirmed spontaneously by my friend, a casino employee, who was telling me the signs they look for in spotting counters.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Exactly how I came to the realization, which was later confirmed spontaneously by my friend, a casino employee, who was telling me the signs they look for in spotting counters.

Don't expect they much watch the smaller tables for that though do they?

A good place to practice at the small tables. Like a juggler adding yet one more ball to his throw...

 

[aslan]

Don't expect they much watch the smaller tables for that though do they?

A good place to practice at the small tables. Like a juggler adding yet one more ball to his throw...

Normally at a proactive casino they look at the mid to high dollar tables. If it's a boring day, security might look around for someone to evaluate, even at a low dollar table. They know that a good counter might be testing the waters at the smaller table, preparing to return in a week and hit them for a $40,000 score at a larger table. At a more reactive casino, usually a large hotel/casino complex, they are more focused on customer-friendly relations. They don't concentrate that much on high roller tables because they know most everyone. The main time they are looking for counters or other APs is when they get a call from the pit, for example, a high roller they don't know is "getting lucky," or someone is obviously counting, even at a $25 or $50 table, and making a sizeable score.

The long and the short of it is, you're right in assuming they don't spend much time evaluating small players, especially at reactive casinos like Bellagio, MGM or Venetian, but you might get evaluated eventually if you play at a reactive casino, usually a smaller facility that can't tolerate hits as easily as the larger places, or a larger casino that is having financial problems. The very small places are another class, and they might watch you like a hawk even at the low dollar tables.

A word of caution: A casino may change its policy of AP surveillance at a moments notice, just as they change the rules of BJ from favorable to unfavorable, and vice versa, at a moments notice. It's basically a financial decision. So it's best to always play your best game no matter what, camo included. If you get caught at a low limit table, it will hurt you just as much if you end up in the Griffin mug book, although they aren't as likely to submit your name if you were playing a low min game (although sometimes they do).

 

[EasyRhino]

Don't expect they much watch the smaller tables for that though do they?

It really, really, really, depends on the place.

The three places where I've been backed off or pref shuffled on were all low-roller joints. Siena in Reno, Slots-a-Fun in Vegas, and a local place. All had table maxes of $500, but I was getting backed off with big bets over $50 and under $100.

A while back I read a good point about this, if a casino catches someone counting, at any level, they're most likely to toss them, because they're a nuisance, and are occupying a seat that could be filled by a paying customer.

 

[rdorange]

Counter catchers

Exactly how I came to the realization, which was later confirmed spontaneously by my friend, a casino employee, who was telling me the signs they look for in spotting counters.

Has anyone ever checked out the dealers websites? Quite often they will discuss their experiences with customers and counters.

Check this one out!

(Dead link: http://www.dicedealer.com/index2.html)

Go to the Forum! :cool2:

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

what about putting a big bet out between shuffles, for comp rating purposes? im guessing this is not exactly what you guys are talking about, and this doesnt raise any flags i dont think, but then again, how would the guy know if im doing it because of the cut or because i just feel like changing it? the bet switching when high cards come out would be cheating, so thats a lil dif, as i dont think many people on here, or in general flat out cheat like that.. i dont see much cheating going on, and i havent heard of anybody on here who does that, so its only fair to assume, so if you want to tell me im wrong and people switch bets all the time DURING THE ROUND then go ahead, but remember i didnt claim it as fact, so dont jump on me

 

[EasyRhino]

So wait, you mean you bet small through the end of the shoe, then, during the 1.5 minutes of shuffle, you place a big bet in the betting circle, then, when before the first hand is dealt, go back to betting small?

Waste of time.

It is, however, a valid comp-counting technique to raise your bets in time before the pit critter comes by to mark rating slips, then bet small (or none) when the rest of the times.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

What I'm concerned about is regressing in my "act" after switching to a Zen count. So far except for my pulling away a large bet after the dealer starts shuffling a new shoe my act has been smooth enough.

I can keep a simple conversation going and still count Hi/Lo pretty well. Even flirt with the dealer, waitress or answer simple questions. Hell I've complimented the pit boss and even got him rooting for me a few times. All the while maintaining the count.

But when i shift over to Zen my guess is that i will regress a tad and stay glued to the cards.

However that Zen count sure is a winner. Seem to increase both my earnings and reduce losses in flat minimum bid low counts. That's the real advantage: being able to break even or nearly so in a neutral to slightly low count in order to NAIL the game when it eventually goes up in T/C.

 

[EmeraldCityBJ]

My general recommentation is to WAIT on making your bet until the hand plays out, if there's any chance it would change your bet. If the count is too high or low to matter, then there's no need to wait.

This is excellent advice, but I think it's worth reiterating the point that there is no need to wait if the count is too high or too low. I think waiting can also be a tell, and whenever possible, I like to get my bet out there before the end of the deal. It's the borderline counts toward the end of a shoe when the TC can shift significantly as a hand is played out where it's necessary to wait.

This is another reason head's up play is preferable. If there aren't other players at the table eating cards, the count is not going to fluctuate as much from one hand to the next, and you can almost always bet the correct amount without having to do something which looks unnatural.