BlackJack As a Career?

[Mr.X]

What are your thoughts or experiences with Blackjack as a career?

I've played blackjack on and off just for kicks, but now that i have gotten more into it i have found that i have been making it quite profitable making $200-$400 a night.

I have been giving it a lot of thought into make this a career, i am still a newbie i would say not even close to being a "card counter" but more of a card watcher lol:laugh:...

So if you have any tips, strategies, methods, or anything to share with me i would love to hear it.

Thanks!

 

[bjcount]

What are your thoughts or experiences with Blackjack as a career?

I've played blackjack on and off just for kicks, but now that i have gotten more into it i have found that i have been making it quite profitable making $200-$400 a night.

I have been giving it a lot of thought into make this a career, i am still a newbie i would say not even close to being a "card counter" but more of a card watcher lol:laugh:...

So if you have any tips, strategies, methods, or anything to share with me i would love to hear it.

Thanks!

Lets see 400x7=2800 x52= $145,600 - 40% for taxes = $87,360
- health insurance=75360 - rent = 65,360 -car = 58,000 - other goods = 38000.... do I have to go on?

Can you earn 400 a night every night and always have bucks to live on...

Keep your job and play part time.

BJC

 

[shadroch]

BJ can be a good PT job, or a way of subsidizing your vacations. It shouldn't be considered for a career.

 

[Johnrfla]

Greetings Mr X,

My advice to you, is keep your regular job and play on the side, like you when I started, I almost got carried away at my beginners luck, in 4 trips I made about 2000.00 then I hit a bad losing streak that brought me back to reality, so I started setting aside money and built me a bank roll to take with me for fun, during trips or vacations to places.
Now once I start playing and have success I put away whatever I bought into orginally and play on whats left. This as worked for me tremendously, making it even more enjoyable.
I hope this is somewhat helpful to you

Sincerely,
John

 

[creeping panther]

All

Greetings Mr X,

My advice to you, is keep your regular job and play on the side, like you when I started, I almost got carried away at my beginners luck, in 4 trips I made about 2000.00 then I hit a bad losing streak that brought me back to reality, so I started setting aside money and built me a bank roll to take with me for fun, during trips or vacations to places.
Now once I start playing and have success I put away whatever I bought into orginally and play on whats left. This as worked for me tremendously, making it even more enjoyable.
I hope this is somewhat helpful to you

Sincerely,
John

Excellent advice!

CP

 

[moo321]

Lets see 400x7=2800 x52= $145,600 - 40% for taxes = $87,360
- health insurance=75360 - rent = 65,360 -car = 58,000 - other goods = 38000.... do I have to go on?

Can you earn 400 a night every night and always have bucks to live on...

Keep your job and play part time.

BJC

Ten grand a year for health insurance? and $1000 a month on rent? No wonder you can't live on $150k a year!

 

[Guynoire]

Keep in mind when you ask for advice it will usually be risk adverse. From our point of view we stand to gain almost nothing if you are successful as a professional card counter, but no one wants you to come back crying about how you lost your house gambling. Most people will recommend you keep your day job but then again if you asked whether you should start your own business most people will recommend you keep your day job.

 

[ihate17]

Part timing it for over 30 years

Over these years I have played from a little over 100 hours to over 500 hours in a year. All this time was I still working full time. At some point I stopped building my bankroll and began investing blackjack profits. Today, even though my investments took some big hits on paper (I like rental homes and though value is way down, rents are not in my area), I could easily retire except I believe I continue to work because I like my work but also need the medical insurance that goes along with it. Big medical problems make non group insurance either extremely expensive for me or perhaps not practically even available.
I did try blackjack fulltime for a few months long ago and did not really like all the constant travel and lifestyle especially considering I had a family at the time.

Not knowing your age, but guessing that you are young, taking this part time approach may let you retire quite young (if your health is good). In the meantime your job provides the income for living, a retirement plan (even if self funded), hopefully medical coverage, and generally while you are working you are making money and not spending it during those hours.

ihate17

 

[ccibball50]

Just about everyone will tell you play blackjack part time only. Even the best APs on here will probably tell you that. Now I know I am not near as good as some of the APs on here, but my advice is to understand what is involved in making a living on blackjack. You can make 40 or 50k a year traveling from place to place, but you need a massive bankroll to start. In my opinion thats not enough money to quit my day job and play bj full time. However, if you can build a team, you can make enough money in about 5 years to live for the rest of your life. The only problem is finding the right people for the team. Everyone will tell you its almost impossible, but that is the same in the business world.

If you have the right mindset and the right crew, and you are an excellent manager(mainly of people) then it is a possibility. 80% of businesses fail within the first 5 years. Within the next 5 years 80% of those left fail. The same thing happens for the next 5 years, and then the next 5. After 20 years, you chance of failing decreases. I can assume that becoming a professional BJ player has the same difficulties, if not more. The main reason for businesses failing are twofold: 1. poor managers 2. poor business plan.

If you are serious, you need to form a strategic business plan and run it like a company. Constantly tracking profitability among other things.

The only other way is to up you ROR by developing a new count. This post will probably catch a lot of flack, but I believe there are better, probably more difficult, counting systems that will work tremendously. There may even be some out there. This gives you a competetive advantage and probably adds much camo.

I read in a book (can't remember which one) that a sim was computed on a SD game. The sim flat bet the entire time and destroyed the casino's edge. It kept up with every card played and computed the best move in every senario possible. The problem is that it is too much math to calculate on the table. However if you could put this info in a way that was managable (not all the info but a much larger portion) then you could theoretically make a living on BJ. The next problem is that if a casino sees you are winning over the long run and they cannot tell you are counting, there is still a good chance you will get kicked out. But your playing time will be much longer at each casino. I believe you can beat a SD game straight up if you develop the proper strategy.

With hilo and full indexes in SD with 80% pen and decent rules, you can beat the game straight up flat betting. Yes I know this is not realistic in the casino environment, but it gives a little insight on what you can do with a sd game.

People will shoot you down and say you are crazy, but the type people who have a plan and go after it are the type people who started multi million dollar corporations.

I however have decided not to persue this to the fullest due to I am currently taking over the family business, and there is much more potential where I am at. Just remember, when someone calls you crazy or tells you not to quit your job, use that as fuel to prove them wrong, but first uderstand the effects and nature of card counting before making the decision.
You should first become an AP to understand better before attempting anything like this.

Failing to plan is planning to fail.

 

[bjcount]

Ten grand a year for health insurance? and $1000 a month on rent? No wonder you can't live on $150k a year!

I take it that you have no idea how much health insurance is but 15 years ago it was 1200/mth for a family so I posted a conservative figure. I don't and I won't live in a match box. You couldn't rent anything in these part of the woods for under $1000/mth, and thats probably for a bug infested studio.

To each their own.

BJC

 

[ccibball50]

It helps to have a wife that has group insurance for the entire family, or you can form an LLC for $50 and get group insurance. You probably need a couple of employees though to lower the price.

 

[Mr.X]

You guys have giving me real good insight on whether or not i should do this full or part time. It is probably a good idea to take it slow until i find my nitch playing strategies and then go from there.

Do you have any advice on what strategies are most important to learn such as money management, counting, or other tips you may have?

Thanks again!

 

[ccibball50]

I personally like UBZ II since it takes out some of the error in coverting to a true count, but in the long run, I would probably recomend Zen or Mentor and probably implement a quarter kelly betting strategy if you have the bankroll. If you don't have the bankroll but have a replenishing bankroll, you could playe every now and then until you build the bankroll. This is how I started. I got up to about $5000 (strickly from winnings) and was backed off from a casino for my first time. I then realized the importance of going in with a big bankroll early (by this i mean after you know you can make money) to utilize every minute you are aloud in the casino. I was wasting away my casino time at 10 to 15 dollars and hour when I should have been going for at least $50 an hour. (per 100 hands)

I am by no means the best AP out here and have only been serious for about a year, but if you have any question feel free to PM me. If I can't answer it, I will point you to the right person who can. Most anyone out here is willing to help out.

 

[Pelerus]

The only other way is to up you ROR by developing a new count.

When I read this, my first reaction was "why would he be trying to find ways to increase his risk of ruin?!" You can tell that I have been studying blackjack perhaps a bit too exclusively, because it took me a minute to realize that you instead meant "rate of return." :laugh:

I would add that another way to increase your expected value over straight counting is through the use of "advanced techniques" (there is a whole subforum dedicated to them here). They are certainly not easy to learn, however, and they require even more finicky game selection than standard counting.

With hilo and full indexes in SD with 80% pen and decent rules, you can beat the game straight up flat betting.

Counts with greater playing efficiency are more suitable to this task than Hi-Lo, which while having a fine betting correlation, has a somewhat sub-par PE. Playing efficiency measures how well a counting system provides information for deviations to basic strategy based upon changing true counts. Betting correlation measures the accuracy of a system in predicting situations of player advantage in which the bet should be raised.

Because such a large bet spread is used in shoe games, BC is the most important factor, while in single and double deck games in which a significantly smaller spread can be employed, PE plays the deciding role. In a situation where no spread is used, as in this example, playing efficiency becomes even more critical. This method of play is known as depth charging, which Snyder defines as "using the depth of the deal as the primary method of gaining a long run advantage, rather than relying on a betting spread based on card counting."

One other thing to note regarding single deck depth charging: because a high efficiency player's decisions become more accurate the further into the deck he goes, always raising his bet on later rounds (regardless of the count) can provide even more EV than flat betting - and the pit cannot correlate his bet variation to that of a bet spreading counter.

 

[ccibball50]

When I read this, my first reaction was "why would he be trying to find ways to increase his risk of ruin?!" You can tell that I have been studying blackjack perhaps a bit too exclusively, because it took me a minute to realize that you instead meant "rate of return." :laugh:

I would add that another way to increase your expected value over straight counting is through the use of "advanced techniques" (there is a whole subforum dedicated to them here). They are certainly not easy to learn, however, and they require even more finicky game selection than standard counting.



Counts with greater playing efficiency are more suitable to this task than Hi-Lo, which while having a fine betting correlation, has a somewhat sub-par PE. Playing efficiency measures how well a counting system provides information for deviations to basic strategy based upon changing true counts. Betting correlation measures the accuracy of a system in predicting situations of player advantage in which the bet should be raised.

Because such a large bet spread is used in shoe games, BC is the most important factor, while in single and double deck games in which a significantly smaller spread can be employed, PE plays the deciding role. In a situation where no spread is used, as in this example, playing efficiency becomes even more critical. This method of play is known as depth charging, which Snyder defines as "using the depth of the deal as the primary method of gaining a long run advantage, rather than relying on a betting spread based on card counting."

One other thing to note regarding single deck depth charging: because a high efficiency player's decisions become more accurate the further into the deck he goes, always raising his bet on later rounds (regardless of the count) can provide even more EV than flat betting - and the pit cannot correlate his bet variation to that of a bet spreading counter.

Yes you are right I run numbers for companies on a daily basis, I mixed ROR up with Rate of Return, I didnt mean ruin of risk, sorry.

Yes I agree hilo is not optimal and I do not even use it anymore. I use UBZ II. I had run sims months ago with hilo and I knew the results, that is why quoted hilo.

 

[Pelerus]

Out of curiosity, ccibball50, are you an accountant, or more of an analyst? (I ask because I am currently in school studying accounting, and it would be neat to know another accountant/BJ AP.)

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Keep in mind when you ask for advice it will usually be risk adverse. From our point of view we stand to gain almost nothing if you are successful as a professional card counter, but no one wants you to come back crying about how you lost your house gambling. Most people will recommend you keep your day job but then again if you asked whether you should start your own business most people will recommend you keep your day job.

Excellent observation. Along with that, anyone who already is a full-time player doesn't want to encourage everyone else to play full-time for their own personal reasons.

I don't recommend it as a full-time job because if you have the qualities to be a successful full-time pro (intelligence, good judgment, perseverance, personal discipline) you have the qualities to do a lot of other things successfully too, and many of those things are better than playing blackjack.

 

[shadroch]

You guys have giving me real good insight on whether or not i should do this full or part time. It is probably a good idea to take it slow until i find my nitch playing strategies and then go from there.

Do you have any advice on what strategies are most important to learn such as money management, counting, or other tips you may have?

Thanks again!

If you are to try BJ as a fulltime job, it's essential that you learn everything there is to know about couponomy, comp counting and bonus hustling.
As an example- In late Decenmber, an ad ran in the Las Vegas paper. It contained a $25 match play for the Suncoast, another for the Orleans and a $20 MP for The Gold Coast. The same paper had a $10 MP for The Palms.
Each coupon was good once a day. A $15.50 investment in thirty one papers would have allowed you to play each casino each day in January. Your EV for playing those coupons would cover your rent and more.
Another casino gives anyone who cashs their paycheck a spin on a machine. You don't know what you win until you read the ticket. 75% or more get a ticket good for either a free draft beer or you can use it as a $1 MP on a BJ game.Most discard it as worthless to them. A hustler recognizes that he can gather a good many of these and play them. First off, they are not limited to one a day, nor even one a hand. You can play all day getting $6 for a win, but losing $5 when you lose, or use 5 tix at a time and get $10 for a win, while risking only $5.
My favorite casino in L
aughlin is big on day buses from Vegas. The daytrippers get a funbook that contains a free buffet coupon and a $5 MP.
Hang out by the buffet entrance and the slot playing seniors will happily give you their MPs, as they are of no use to them.
An expert coupon hustler has an edge the best counter gain only dream about. The problem is it works best at low stakes as few MPs exceed $25, with most being $5 to $10.
But after you've mastered coupon hustling, the transistion into Comp Counting is easy.

 

[ccibball50]

Out of curiosity, ccibball50, are you an accountant, or more of an analyst? (I ask because I am currently in school studying accounting, and it would be neat to know another accountant/BJ AP.)

More of an analyst. I run a company called PerforMax, Inc. http://www.performax.biz We have 2 sections to the business, one is medical billing which we have an operations manager for, and the other is managerial services. Basically I head up a team and we go in and analyze the profitability of the medical clinic and make recomendations. However much accounting is involved, but not to the extent of a full fledged accountant.

 

[StudiodeKadent]

OK, I am biased being a basic strategy player rather than an advantage player, but I think the advice I can give is as follows.

1) Develop AP skills. By this, I mean card counting, ideally multiple methods of doing so.

2) Practice like hell. I'm not an AP'er yet I practice BS often.

3) Make sure you have a 'stable' of casinos you gamble at and try to develop close business relationships with them.

4) Be reasonable. Don't expect huge advantages ever. Small advantages are the best result over the long term via AP/

5) Expect variance and lots of it. Comps help ride out variance.

6) To be honest, given the relatively small long term margins of AP, all I can recommend is being a part time BJ AP'er and part time your normal job. I know this isn't romantic but I'm trying to be sensible here.