BS engine on this site question?

[ycming]

Hey peeps,

the house edge quoted on this site in the BS engine for ENHC is 0.55, does that include the no insurance rule?

Thanks
Ming

 

[London Colin]

You never take insurance with BS. So it is irrelevant.

 

[ycming]

Ah what am getting at for the game we play, the HE is really 0.55 + The effect of the "no insurance rule" ?

Thanks
Ming

 

[KenSmith]

Colin's point is that a basic strategy player should never insure. Therefore, the house edge for basic strategy is not impacted whether insurance is allowed or not.

 

[ycming]

Colin's point is that a basic strategy player should never insure. Therefore, the house edge for basic strategy is not impacted whether insurance is allowed or not.

yeah thanks for that, so for a counter the HE is 0.55 + the impact of the no insurance rule?

IS that correct?

Thanks
Ming

 

[London Colin]

yeah thanks for that, so for a counter the HE is 0.55 + the impact of the no insurance rule?

IS that correct?

Thanks
Ming

The question doesn't really make sense. The impact on the HE for a counter is the net result of the betting ramp and all the strategy variations used.

Even if you were to flat bet, only using the count to vary strategy, insurance is just one (albeit the most important) of the strategy variations.

And the impact of not being able to insure will vary according to penetration, betting ramp, etc. It's not something you can factor in up front with the off-the-top house edge. I think a sim for the particular conditions you would be playing is the only way to calculate it (which is something you said you intended to do in a previous thread on this subject).

 

[ycming]

I have asked snorky to run the sims with Zen (indicies TC 0 to 12 only) with the following rules as you may know already ENHC:

- Dealer standards on all 17
- Double Any 2 cards
- Double after spilt allowed
- No peek (Euorpean Style ENHC)
- No Insurnace

(Dead link: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/828/screenhunter28sep100229.gif/)

Have a look.
Ming

 

[ycming]

I know there are factors that affects the no insurance rules, but I am looking at a rule of thumb an estimated advantage it gives to the casino without the no insurance rule ...... And isn't everything we do in blackjack based on estimations, with any count we are estimating the advantages.

Just like people can say in hi-lo per TC it gives the player an advantage of 0.5.

Ming

 

[London Colin]

I know there are factors that affects the no insurance rules, but I am looking at a rule of thumb an estimated advantage it gives to the casino without the no insurance rule ...... And isn't everything we do in blackjack based on estimations, with any count we are estimating the advantages.

Just like people can say in hi-lo per TC it gives the player an advantage of 0.5.

Ming

If you re-run the sim you posted above, but with insurance enabled, you will be able to see the difference this produces in the bottom line, and thus get a feel for the value of insurance under those playing conditions.

You could do the same comparison for a handful of 'typical' scenarios (e.g., different penetrations) and see how much this causes the insurance/no-insurance difference to vary. Take an average and that will probably be as good a rule of thumb as any.


The section on the I18 in BJA3 does give a methodolgy for calculating the value of the various strategy variations, including insurance, but I find it all a bit confusing to be honest.

The table of results given is for 4D, Hi-Lo, 75% pen. The figure given for insurance is 0.117%, but I'm not entirely sure what this means. (i.e. can we just multiply this by the average bet to get the $/round gain from insurance?) Maybe someone could clarify this?

 

[FLASH1296]

The [painful] truth.

The "problem" with ENHC its that your not splitting 8's vs. Ace, etc. etc.

The modified Basic Strategy is costly to you.

Insurance has no impact on this discussion.

What you must understand is that with a House Edge so high and "lackluster"
penetration you can only gain a realistic advantage with a huge spread, e.g.
> 25-1, and the bankroll requirements to keep "risk" to a reasonable level, is enormous,
perhaps as much as 1,500 units

 

[London Colin]

The "problem" with ENHC its that your not splitting 8's vs. Ace, etc. etc.

The modified Basic Strategy is costly to you.

Insurance has no impact on this discussion.

What you must understand is that with a House Edge so high and "lackluster"
penetration you can only gain a realistic advantage with a huge spread, e.g.
> 25-1, and the bankroll requirements to keep "risk" to a reasonable level, is enormous,
perhaps as much as 1,500 units

Insurance has no impact on the cost of ENHC, and vice versa. However, both of these are among the problems faced in the UK, and their impact is cumulative.

If you're going to run sims, you might as well sim all of the conditions that apply to the game you will be playing (even while perhaps varying one of them in order to assess its impact).

Based on my limited experience, there does seem to be some scope to seek out better-than-average pen or other unusual, advantageous conditions, rather than be forced into a truly huge spread. But the limited opportunities will obviously make things difficult for anyone wanting to pay for a living.

 

[ycming]

Thanks again Colin. I will run the sims later on or ask snorky .

I agree, i can certainly get good pen where I am! And high spread with out much heat !! And am planning to have 2000 units to keep ROR down. Which is the next topic i will investigate along with kelly!

Thanks
Ming