Caught in the Act of Counting.

[phantom007]

During a recent trip, the following situation developed. I was playing 1st Base with 2 other players in a SD game. The Count was +10 going into the 3rd, and usually final round. I had my max. bet out, $30. (much less than usual thanks to Estimated Tax Payments). The shortstop position was taken by an African-American female using a 10:1 spread...i.e., her weight was about 10x her estimated age of 35. I was only playing one hand, instead of my usual 2 at this Count, due to her insistance that my flip-flopping between 1-2 hands was giving the Dealer "all the good cards", and I did not want any extra attention to my playing style.

3rd Base was occupied by another African-American, a male who looked to be about 19, and who was dressed like a Gang Member. He had bought in for $100., lost two hands in a row, at bets of $10. each, so wisely placed his remaining $80. in the betting circle.

The cards are dealt. Dealer shows a "6" up...sweet. The Count is now +12. I look at my cards...as expected, a "10 & 9"...the Count drops to +9. Ms. Shortstop flips over a "6 & 5", doubling her $10. bet, then peeking, then throwing her "down" card, a "2", up for all to see...and the Count is now +14. 3rd Base flips over his "A & 3", then retrieves $80. in mixed bills from his billfold, so as to Double-Down. He likewise peeks then exposes his drawn Ace. The Count is now +15.

Time for the Dealer to Bust-out. He flips over a "4". Not good. The Count is now +17, he is going to get a "10"...but he draws a "6"...the Count shoots to +19, then he does not bust out with a "10", but rather a "7", which makes the Count +20.

Bedlam breaks out at the table. The other Players are screaming, hooping, hollerin', high-fiving, hugging, etc. The Dealer is even laughing, and congratulating the others on their good fortunes. The PC comes over, all smiles, to observe the party.

And I sit there, staring at the Dealer's "7" like a deer in the headlights. That should have been a "10". What if the Dealer screws up and deals another round? Should I let my winning ride? The remaining deck is likely nothing but ""10's" plus the unplayed Ace that my sidecount says should be in there somewhere. If the Dealer gets an Ace-up? Insurance...Definately!

Then, my daydream is broken...I realize that everyone is looking at me...the players, the Dealer, and the PC. Ms. Shortstop comments on "my cool". The PC then said "He's cool because he knew what cards were coming. He's a Card Counter."

Everyone (but me) chuckles...I am trying to remember the closest exit. But the PC just walks over to the adjoining table to approve change. I decided that my planned sprint to the door would be a little obvious, so I keep playing my system through the next deck, then calmly colour-up and leave.

So, TO THE POINT of this Post, I was not barred because:

A. The PC was joking.

B. The PC did not think I was very good.

C. My $10-30. spread did not threaten the Casino.

Would appreciate input and experience of others!

Thanks.

 

[lifesabet]

phantom,

Im guessing the pit was practicing a little bit of pride. Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. 10 to 30 is not being a hog at all, in fact, to me it sounds like a very very long grind.

Im sure its a bit difficult to stop a 30 dollar bettor at a table surrounded by entertainment players. There is a cost to stopping the action and telling someone they cannot play another 30 bucks in front of a bunch of other winners who will probably walk out broke.

What a shame that you would have to play so paranoid. Is that actually fun?

I obviously dont know what Im talking about because I cannot see how your play would be enough of a threat to send you out the door. If you are writing this, then I must be wrong, Im just not seeing the big picture I guess.

If you were going 10 to 100 wonging with your multiple hands, it could be a different situation. Sounds to me like the pc did a good job in that he's got you guessing whether he was serious or not. Tell me, if on your way out he took you aside and discussed what he will and what he wont tolerate, would you be understanding and honorable enough to play within the limited edge he decided to allow for you? Again, I dont have enough experience to know whether this can be achieved, but I think Id give a new player the benefit of the doubt, lay down the unwritten policy, and see if they cooperate before playing hard ball.

lifesabet

 

[hammer]

Re: Caught

Some casinos get worried over nothing while others worry over
everything,each one is entirely different.

Tell the pit critter
next time, what you fiquire just
because Iam a good player
that I win everytime,go out and try to play yourself and see how easy.

 

[ZOD]

I know what you mean Phantom; the mind games and the different ways we handle them never cease to amaze me. Last week I was playing in a good shoe game when the shift change occurred. I had been there about 45 minutes spreading $10-$200 with no heat. The new floor walked over to get a rundown of goings on in the pit and there was the usual conversation about who was up and who was drunk and who was betting big. Then the outgoing floor said in a loud voice that there were two counters, tables 14 and 17, both at third base. Of course, I was at third base and there was a big "14" at the money drop on my table. I decided it was time for chow, colored up about $400 ahead, and headed for the Italian place in the casino. The guy on table 17 continued to play, though I'm sure he'd heard the same conversation I had. I mulled over the situation during dinner. Were they really on to me? Were they just trying to see who would act guilty? I didn't know. (That, by the way, is the reason I only play LOW stakes poker.) But, about an hour later as I walked by, the player on 17 was being invited to play any other game in the casino. He thanked them for their judgement of his prowess, colored up half a dozen purple and calmly walked out the door without cashing in.

I don't know if he had just been doing this a lot longer than me, or if he just had kahunas the size of coconuts. I just hope all those purples were profit...

ZOD

 

[Abraham de Moivre]

The PC didn't know you were counting, he threw out the remark to see your reaction. The shocked look in your eyes, your mouth hanging open, the sweat immediately breaking out on your brow, told him everything he needed to know.

He didn't bounce you because he felt sorry for you. Such a juicy high count and you made $30! Hell, the "gangsta" on 3rd base made $160 on the play. Was that $80 bet, and going in to the wallet for the crumbled bills, really what it appeared to be? How do you know he wasn't using Triple Zen with 4 side counts? Seems to me he got congratulated for his win, was going to get comped for his action, and you can't even pull off a 1-3 spread in a monster count.

Who is fooling who?

 

[The Mayor]

The first time

We have to remember that for many who frequent this site, it is their first time in battle conditions. I remember my first time, betting $5 - $20 at the shoe games as the Hard Rock, and I was sure (after I won $100) that the heat was getting intense. It takes a lot of experience to know and understand the kinds of things you mentioned in your post.

There are many lessons for Phantom (and all of us) here:

1) Don't play through a shift change.

2) If you're going to count, make it worth your while (spread enough to make a difference).

3) Don't play too long in any one casino, espcially if you are in Vegas and there is a lot of choice.

4) Bosses have many tactics to confirm their suspicions.

5) Keeping your cool and having a solid act is a huge part of playing a winning game.

--Mayor

 

[ZOD]

Re: The first time

For any experienced amateurs or pros:
Just out of curiosity, how often do you get enough heat that you have to make a hasty exit? And how often do you get backed off or outright barred? I checked my records for my last 1000 hours of play (mostly green chip play for roughly 3 years back) and I've left because of heat only a dozen or so times. I've only been asked not to play once, and never been barred. My only "act" is that I stay friendly and talkative most of the time and occassionally get "drunk." (And, of course, I don't move my lips while counting.) I guess that's why it's still a little unnerving each time it happens. Any comments?
ZOD

 

[branmuffin]

Re: The first time

What kind of hourly average did you make over those 1000 hour?
What count do you use?
What games do you play?
What kind of spread do you use?
What was your hourly standard deviation?
How long are your playing sessions?
How often do you play in the same casino/shift?
Max bankroll drawdown?
Is your current BR just a bj bankroll and if so has it been depleted more than once ?

I find it rare where you can actually talk to someone about the nittygritty of real play.1000 hours ..thats a solid sample to say the least for you to get a good read on your play.I am sure that if you are an amatuer your BR and betspread has varied over that time frame but still any info would be helpful.
1000 hours ..thats alotta of blackjack .I play 2100 hours of poker my second year as a pro.
I am thinking about playing part-time 40 or so hours a month right now?
I guess this should be or could be a whole new thread..?

This question is also directed to other experienced players>>>

Regards
Lee

 

[ZOD]

A few answers

A few answers:

I think of myself as about 2 steps below semi-pro. I don't rely on bj for household income. I have a dedicated br of 1200-1500 units or so (anything over I generally spend). 80% of my play is at 3 local casinos with 6D 5/6 pen S17 DOA RSA. Bet spread averages 1-10 (it varies depending which floor persons are on duty, sometimes up to 1-20). I have used HiLo and HiOpt I&II, but now I use KO (SO much easier while carrying on a conversation.) For the 1000 hours in question: My average session was 1.5 hours and my hourly average was 1.7 units. My largest downturn was 388 units.

I started my first br with 300 units from poker winnings (I played low stakes full time for 2 years.) Lost it in 3 months. Started br number 2 with 500 units and got really lucky (32 winning sessions in a row.) Since then, my graph looks a lot like Mayor's.

I honestly wouldn't want to play professionally, though I admire those who can. This way works for me. And if I ever decide to give it up, I can use the cash to send my daughter to college (not bad for a hobby.) I would be interested in hearing about some other real world results if anyone would care to share. Best...

ZOD

 

[branmuffin]

Re: A few answers

ZOD:
Thanks for the timely and complete response.
You had what looks to me like great results.I assume your units are $10ish
Thats an awesome average for the game you described >you 've obviously thought alot about your a a game away from the table.
I'm down in Florida now moving from NJ about 4 years ago.
I am going to play in Tunica and Biloxi ...soon.Been reading everthing I can last few weeks.I am sticking w/HiLo now.... Wongs -1/+6 indicies.I've thought about a 5K BR w/ $10 units but I may bump it up to 10K w/bigger units to make it worthwile if i decide to put in 300-500 hours in next 6 months or so.
Problem is Hi-Lo is crap against SD and DD ..there are good SD and DD in Tunica and Biloxi(Copa)... so I've been looking at Halves or AO2.I am reading Carlson's book now.

Thanks for the great detailed info.Keep it Up!!
Regards, Lee