comp policies

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

Here's what happened:

In January I had an incredible session at a certain casino. I put out Plenty of top bets, and pulled in a lot of money. After a few hours of play I asked a floor person for a meal comp. He looked at the computer for a minute and pointed me to the desk of a casino host.

The casino host pulled me up on the computer and said: "Hmmm. you won a lot of money downstairs. There's nothing on your card." I explained to him that I had plenty of hundred-dollar bets out and had put through so many thousands in action. He said that maybe it just wasn't registered in the computer yet. I went back out and won even more money that day, too.

So I went back this morning and checked my comp balance. $15 !!! They keep a balance for 6 months, so there was no chance of my comps having been rolled off because of time. I asked the woman why my balance was so low after playing for so long at that level. She hit a few buttons on her computer and said this:

"Ohhhh, you WON when you were here, that's why!. They don't give comps because that would be like giving you something twice. If you played slots then the comps go on right away, but not the table games".

I was under the impression that comps were awarded at this place,or anywhere, based on total action.

Also, what is obviously happening is this place is keeping track of cuumulative wins. The word in the street is that a casino a couple hours away was doing this too, and was using the info to make counters.

Is this a trend in how comps are awarded?
Are many placed doing this? In Vegas, too?
Is it time to stop using the players card here? I Think so!

-Felix

 

[Greasy John]

This has happened to me. Be polite and just move on. Arguing will gain you nothing. If they don't like you action they might no even validate our parking ticket.

 

[gehrig]

comp policies... they be a changing.

since the comp hustle book, i haven't seen much specific info posted on the trends in (at least lv) comp programs. it's a worthy subject.

given that skilled 21 players shouldn't be playing for comps, "playing" the system has some value. the player's card is double edged. the downside is that it i'd's the player. that file can be annotated as to player skill. good news is that it can divert heat. that same player profile can be pumped up with "house game" and slot play. i'll leave it to the reader to understand how to bulk up his/her player file without personally playing those games.

as to the initial post in the thread, asking for comps with some measure of play is appropriate. it's what a ploppy would do. and, being disappointed with any response is also appropriate. [puppy dogs/21 players]

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.

Part of the problem is that the casinos are rarely clear about the formula used to award comps. My favorite store states outright: we pay 25% of your average bet per hour, on blackjack.

Now this is significant. It correlates to 10-20% of my EV and not subject to variance. Certainly not something that you want to leave behind at the casino. What's more, PC's will boost your rating depnding on how much they like you. Several times I have heard a PC ask a dealer if a guy was tipping and say that he will rate him really good if he was. Being most of the PC's here also deal on different shifts, you can see that as a collusion between players and dealers to transfer money from casino management, to players, to the dealers. So I consider this just another variety of AP, and I play it.

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.

>>"the comp hustle book"

What is this?

>>"[A] skilled 21 players shouldn't be playing for comps"

This is my position too. A players journal should reflect his skill level as a player only, not his combined BJ/comp hustling prowess, or his ability to find a cheap flight to Vegas. Travel expenses should be seperate as well as comps, if you ask me.

>>i'll leave it to the reader to understand how to bulk up his/her player file without personally playing those games.

Ok, when I get a replacement card, It's usually because I left mine at home. I now have a whole stack of them. So maybe I could take them all with me next time out and stick them in a bunch of slot machines. Has this scam been busted yet?, I can't imagine anything like this as having not been profiled. If I'm caught, is it really worth the few bucks for a lousy lobster tail? Even if I leave only one card in a machine, will they void all the action if they find it and pull it? Even my ligitamate action? I can see this happening.

If you have better methods, please email me:
[email protected]

I think it's time to come up with excuses why I'm not playing with a card at this place. There are now some very good ones.

-Felix

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.

>>My favorite store states outright: we pay 25% of your average bet per hour, on blackjack.

This, of course, changes everyting as far as my philosophy about calculating comps into E.V.(I don't).
If it's true, I agree this is very significant and whould be an exception for me.

Oh yea A.M., to elaborate about Detroit/Windsor casinos. I left a message in that earlier thread that Windsor is closed because of a union thing. And to answer you question about it being worth a 2 hour flight... I don't think so. Especally now that Windsor is closed. I get the impression from your profile that you play mainly in A.C.? You would just be in for more of the same in Detroit.

-Felix

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.

Not worth it to leave cards in machines, in my opinion. There are some $5 full pay 9/6 VP machines where I play. These have very close to 0 EV when played properly, and well into the positive when you include the comps, so I play them for cover, and also because I happen to enjoy VP. One of these nights I'm going to sacrifice and sit and play these machines all night, no BJ. What counter in the world would do that?

Now leaving cards in machines especially higher stakes ones I'm sure has been tried and is probably a good way to be 86'ed. What I could do is leave one card in one machine every time I play, that will be overlooked because people legitimately forget one card in one machine all the time. But realistically, the chances that anyone else who is playing $5 9/6 VP is also an AP or very experienced gambler is very high, and the chances they will neglect to use their own card and leave mine in are nil. Walk down the row of machines like that and see how many people don't have a card inserted, and see how many unoccupied machines do have a card inserted, and you have enough data to figure out the likelihood of this working.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: where I play

No I play mostly in Connecticut, never been to AC. CT has very decent shoe games with LSR and near zero heat, only drawbacks are the crowded conditions and relatively high stakes. Forget about less than $25 on the weekends or even on many weekdays.

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.

Thanks,

I have abolutely no knowledge/experience with V.P. or machine games or how AP's approach them. Your advice is logical. I'm goin' to have to start screwin' around with V.P. someday so I can become a bit more well rounded with this stuff. But I honestly have no immediate intrinsic motivation to sit in a chair and push levers for food all day.

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

Still...

Figure the value of LSR as opposed to your ability to spread more becaue of the minimums. More of the same. 8 decks just sucks across the board.

 

[gehrig]

"favorite...detroit, windsor"....

time out sluggo. isn't that the joint that 86's *slot* players for "abusing the comp program" ? class act !

methinks that move is akin to "backrooming" and "trespassing" an old couple because they only bought groceries on "double coupon day".

 

[gehrig]

answers...

"comp city" (1 and 2) by max rubin. he's the "color commentator" on the current game show network, bj "tournament". as a side note, rubin and even the roving wahini window dressing/"reporter", have to know better how to play the game than the scripted jive they're given. could be that i'm wrong though.

inserting/leaving extra cards in machines has diminishing returns. that so because i believe that most software applications require the card to be reinserted after a certain time, idle. other, more inventive methods are still in use and shouldn't be discarded through publication.

as i noted yars ago, player evaluation assets are the new frontier for casino profitability. as to importance to the net hold, no doubt accurate player evaluation exceeds the import of "advantage" player detection. witness the newest (not the first) generation of table game mechanisms to evaluate play at 21 (or any table game). these systems are in fact designed for player evaluation. they're installed to approach the accuracy of slot machine databases. want a comp sir ? usta be that most any pitstiff had the power of the pen. then the power was restricted to the (entire) pit supervisor, then on to even a shift boss. now, the 'stiff directs you to the "self-comp" gizmo in the hallway next to the atm.

the collateral damage/benefit (21 player vs. the house), as specifically pointed out in sales presentations, is that those systems coupled with card reading shoes, can detect and display "out of line" (read, high count), shoes. the remote displays, at the pit stand, and if requested at the surveillance console, are colorful.

 

[ZOD]

After having a disastrous November and December at a particular casino and getting zillions of comp credits, I was denied a lousy buffet in January. When I complained at customer service, they explained that the point tally begins again at the first of the year and that points based on my previous losses didn't roll over. I asked for a complete description of how comps are accrued and every person I spoke with gave me a different formula. The only constant information was that, at my level of action, I could get virtually anything I wanted if I were to play slots instead of table games!

Oh well, gotta go. I hear those Sizzlin' 7s calling my name...

ZOD

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

Yes...

, the casino I was playing at is the one that barred the elderly VP players for playing unbeatable VP machines.

 

[BlackJackHack]

Interesting. In my experience, EVERY PC and host will tell you that your comps have nothing to do with whether you win or lose, but depend only on your action. Not that I actually believe that is the 100% truth, but I'm very surprised that a PC or host would actually TELL YOU that you weren't getting comped because you won.

In stores where the PC's and hosts have broad discretion in awarding comps, I believe that, for obvious reasons, they are going to be more generous when you are losing. Even in stores where your comp balance is (at least in theory) determined by a computer (which, unfortunately, is becoming the norm, which I think makes it harder to milk the system), there is going to be some amount of PC discretion in terms of the input into the system.

I just don't think it's a smart practice to be whoring for comps when you just had a $2k win. Even if this does not necessarily suggest you are an AP, it does suggest that you are not the most desirable player. On the other hand, after a $2k loss, you may get yourself a nice room, or at least a meal. When I am doing my Las Vegas "paper route" where I play 1 hour pitch game sessions at a string of casinos, I always eat where I am losing!

 

[Tom]

unbelievable

"Ohhhh, you WON when you were here, that's why!. They don't give comps because that would be like giving you something twice. If you played slots then the comps go on right away, but not the table games".

We all know casinos hate winners,but they would never admit to this in a million years, UNLESS they're seeking to get fired.

It was an interesting story, kind of makes me wonder.

 

[Tom]

and what's so colorful..purple?

about this mindplay or mindgame,what ever this cheating scanner is called?

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

>>"Interesting. In my experience, EVERY PC and host will tell you that your comps have nothing to do with whether you win or lose"

This wasn't a PC or host. As I originally stated, the PC and host started tapdancing when I asked for the comp in January. It was the woman in the players card booth this weekend who brought up the record of my action and made the statement about the nature of my balance.

Maybe she was making assumptions or had gotten some bad info herself. I don't know. But what other excuse could there have been for so much action yielding so little in comps?

I might add, this is certainly a change in the way comps have been awarded at this place from past years. I'm very sure about that! I've gotten my share of lobster out them.

-Felix

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: sounds illegal to me

It reeks of illegality and false advertising. When they get you to sign up for the card and play in their casino they tell you your rewards are based on your play. If the purpose of the card is to rebate your losses, that is an entirely different mattter, and the legality of that is still questionable. If you happen to be playing poker with the card, they would not be able to give you comps at all because it is patently illegal for the house to rebate a poker player's losses unless everybody at the table is informed that he is playing with the house's money.

 

[ZOD]

Customer service

I don't have a problem with casinos giving greater comps to losing players. I only have a problem with not being able to get accurate information about comp policies. Just answer my questions honestly. It's more of a customer service issue and, damn it, I'm the customer!

I sometimes wish the casinos would pause and remember that they should be as nice to the gamblers as they are to their stockholders.

Best...

ZOD