Composition Dependent Strategy Engine?

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SilentBob420BMFJ

Banned
im looking for a composition dependent strategy for 6 decks, s17, das, da2, split to 4 hands.. since i play 6 decks now instead of 8, i figured that i could benefit from a composition strategy (takes .023 off the house, which would reduce the house edge down to .403% which is pretty good these days), but i cant find anything, and frankly i have never heard of anybody using cds on shoes.. since i flat bet, im looking to do everything i can to get that house down to zero, and i think i can do it with comps, a few indexes, cds, and playing only when the running count is positive.. im aware that all i have to do to play a positive game is play only when the true count is greater that 1, but then i would be playing only 26% of the hands instead of the 40%-50% i want to play, besides, i would then have to calc the true count every hand, instead of only for my index plays
 
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SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
Bob you should pick up a copy of Blackjack Attack, it will answer this and many other questions you have. As for C-D the only difference with 6 decks is
Hit 10,2 vs 4
Stand if 16 is 3 or more cards or the result of a pair-split vs 10
 
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SilentBob420BMFJ

Banned
SystemsTrader said:
Bob you should pick up a copy of Blackjack Attack, it will answer this and many other questions you have. As for C-D the only difference with 6 decks is
Hit 10,2 vs 4
Stand if 16 is 3 or more cards or the result of a pair-split vs 10
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thanks, but i dont even know the cds for 8 deck.. but you do hit 10,2 vs 4 with 6 deck? what if the count is positive? im guessing cds goes as far as you want to go, its not like tds.. i mean you could say "hit on 10,2 vs 4 unless you see a 9 on the table".. i would like any form of cds, no matter how basic, then i will go from there, so if you guys could start spitting out "composition indexes" for 6 deck AC rules that would be great
 
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Kasi

Well-Known Member
SilentBob420BMFJ said:
thanks, but i dont even know the cds for 8 deck.. but you do hit 10,2 vs 4 with 6 deck? what if the count is positive? im guessing cds goes as far as you want to go, its not like tds.. i mean you could say "hit on 10,2 vs 4 unless you see a 9 on the table".. i would like any form of cds, no matter how basic, then i will go from there, so if you guys could start spitting out "composition indexes" for 6 deck AC rules that would be great
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As System Trader said, I think you would hit a 10,2 vs 4 in 6D. I know you would in 4D but not in 8D.

Keep in mind that almost always the underlying assumption is that these are the first and only 3 cards dealt from a freshly-shuffled shoe.

So, seeing a "9" on the table somewhere with 6 other players is just not covered in comp-dependent EV's and to base a decision on that could very well be foolish.

Somewhere on the Wiz website are lists of various comp-dependent hands.

But, as always, and, as you just pointed out somewhere, always try to pay attention to any underlying assumptions.

These are the hands I think you still hit on in an 8D, S17 game vs dlr 10

HIT
10,4,2
10,3,3
9,6,A
8,6,2
7,6,3
6,6,4

But I don't know for 6D - I'm sure it's out there somewhere. And it definitely would not be the same list for 4D.

And, again, I think that's only true with certainty if they are the first and only 4 cards dealt from a new shoe. How often does that happen? Maybe, absolutely never?! :)

So, basically, while perhaps interesting in some esoteric way, just my advice, apply your energies elsewhere in more profitable ways.
 
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SilentBob420BMFJ

Banned
ya these sound really close, but i only play in positive counts, so all those hits you listed are actually stands when the count is positive, i was told stand on ALL 16 vs 10 when the rc is +.. i dont want to get super complex such as basically looking around the table on each deal to decide my playing decision (on top of counting hi-lo), but at the same time, i need to concentrate on my playing decisions more than the regular card counter since i cant vary my bets, but its all good, im still playing with an advantage, i just want to bump it up some more (i am aware i will probably never get to 1% average advantage tho)
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
Bob, just look here, and then pick the highest EV from the list:

http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix9.html

It will handle any two card composition dependent plays. The Wiz also has multicard composition dependent strategy charts for a few games (really only practical in online play).

But, if you'd rather shift your advantage by more than .2%, you might consider varying your bets with the count. It's much easier.

edit: and zg, it looks like 10,2 vs 4 is one of those plays that depends on whether you're in an S17 or H17 game.
 
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Kasi

Well-Known Member
EasyRhino said:
Bob, just look here, and then pick the highest EV from the list:

http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix9.html

It will handle any two card composition dependent plays. The Wiz also has multicard composition dependent strategy charts for a few games (really only practical in online play).

But, if you'd rather shift your advantage by more than .2%, you might consider varying your bets with the count. It's much easier.

edit: and zg, it looks like 10,2 vs 4 is one of those plays that depends on whether you're in an S17 or H17 game.
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No big deal, but no way does comp-dependent improve a multi-deck game by
0.2%. We might even be off by 2 decimals here lol.

So maybe you make an extra unit every 35,000 hands or so.

Really, Bob, you're time is probably best spent elsewhere, as Rhino says.
 
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SilentBob420BMFJ

Banned
i refuse to vary my bet with less than a few thousand.. the #1 thing that happens to APs is losing their bankroll due to betting too much.. go look at charts for RoR and such.. you would be surprised.. a $10-$40 spread, with a .5% advantage, you need at about $5000 to have a 5% RoR.. and all you smartasses out there, no, im not saying this is 100% accurate, absolutely correct, exact, etc.. it is from the speed count book, and is probably decently accurate.. any way you look at it, $2000 isnt enuf for anything
 
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SilentBob420BMFJ

Banned
ya, i found this, thought i would post it.. Using a composition-dependent strategy only reduces house edge by 0.0031% in a six-deck game, less than one tenth the improvement of a single-deck game (0.0387%).. now thats something even i can consider worthless
 
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Brock Windsor

Well-Known Member
SilentBob420BMFJ said:
i refuse to vary my bet with less than a few thousand.. the #1 thing that happens to APs is losing their bankroll due to betting too much.. go look at charts for RoR and such.. you would be surprised.. a $10-$40 spread, with a .5% advantage, you need at about $5000 to have a 5% RoR.. and all you smartasses out there, no, im not saying this is 100% accurate, absolutely correct, exact, etc.. it is from the speed count book, and is probably decently accurate.. any way you look at it, $2000 isnt enuf for anything
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What kind of RoR are you seeking? <1%? If $10 is your 1 unit bet and you play only TC1 or greater you're making about $2.80 per hour playing 35hands per one hundred in a 6 deck %75 pen game. (according to Snyder). If you at least add a $2.50 chip in TC 2+ counts many casino's will pay you an extra 25cents on your blackjacks ($12.50 BJ pays $19) This huge advantage you have gained from spreading 1/4 of a unit should not increase your RoR significantly and was much easier to come by then gains from composition dependent strategy variations or obscure index plays. In fact, since you're now playing with rules that pay you an extra 25cents per Blackjack on hands at TC2 (BJ pays 38:25) you may even be playing with a lower RoR then flat betting $10, but that part is just speculation. When other posters say to play smarter and not harder they are right. A good idea might be to hold off posting for a while, play A LOT of hi-lo using the best rules you can find nearby and the smallest minimums. Apply the I-18/Fab4 only playing positive counts, backcounting two tables at once, and spreading anything, even if it is just an extra $2.50 chip. Look for chances to buy other players +EV doubles, splits, and insurance. Once you are good at the basics the plays with a more positive EV will become more apparent. Good luck.
BW
 
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SilentBob420BMFJ

Banned
Brock Windsor said:
What kind of RoR are you seeking? <1%? If $10 is your 1 unit bet and you play only TC1 or greater you're making about $2.80 per hour playing 35hands per one hundred in a 6 deck %75 pen game. (according to Snyder). If you at least add a $2.50 chip in TC 2+ counts many casino's will pay you an extra 25cents on your blackjacks ($12.50 BJ pays $19) This huge advantage you have gained from spreading 1/4 of a unit should not increase your RoR significantly and was much easier to come by then gains from composition dependent strategy variations or obscure index plays. In fact, since you're now playing with rules that pay you an extra 25cents per Blackjack on hands at TC2 (BJ pays 38:25) you may even be playing with a lower RoR then flat betting $10, but that part is just speculation. When other posters say to play smarter and not harder they are right. A good idea might be to hold off posting for a while, play A LOT of hi-lo using the best rules you can find nearby and the smallest minimums. Apply the I-18/Fab4 only playing positive counts, backcounting two tables at once, and spreading anything, even if it is just an extra $2.50 chip. Look for chances to buy other players +EV doubles, splits, and insurance. Once you are good at the basics the plays with a more positive EV will become more apparent. Good luck.
BW
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was that a sarcastic post? not sure if you are serious about the 2.50 chip or not, but i have yet to see a casino round up on that, and im not sure where you got the idea that im doing that.. if your talking about my "5.50" post, just because i calculate something doesnt mean that im doing it myself, which i would if i could.. anyways, i am sound on math, and i trust it, but you will have a hard time convincing me that spreading is safer than flat betting with only $2000.. i am aware your RoR can actually go down when the spread goes up, but that is if you have a large enuf bankroll to sustain the short run, which i dont.. show me charts, figures, or whatever to prove to me that i should be spreading with only 2k, which i really dont want to lose.. and remember, i do not have $5 tables by me..
 
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Paradox

Well-Known Member
Close Call Calculator

Norm, again, has a great volume of info at his site. Here is the link to his calculator page. You are looking for the close call calculator.

Cheers,
Paradox
 
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