Comps in High Limit Rooms and Buying Hands

[Dyepaintball12]

Hey guys. 2 unrelated questions but I thought Id save time and put them together:

1) I usually play for about $15min a hand, but am thinking about moving to $25min a hand because I have more money. At the Casino I play in, Casino Windsor, they have a High limit room where BJ min is only $25. I am wondering if playing in the HL room will give any more comps than just playing $25 in the regular area.

Casino Windsor was just bought by Harrahs if that helps at all.

2) I want to know about buying peoples hands at the tables, and doubling for people. How do you go about doing this? Do all casinos allow it?

 

[21forme]

Comps will probably be the same. Scrutiny will probably be greater.

 

[Mimosine]

Hey guys. 2 unrelated questions but I thought Id save time and put them together:

1) I usually play for about $15min a hand, but am thinking about moving to $25min a hand because I have more money. At the Casino I play in, Casino Windsor, they have a High limit room where BJ min is only $25. I am wondering if playing in the HL room will give any more comps than just playing $25 in the regular area.

Casino Windsor was just bought by Harrahs if that helps at all.

2) I want to know about buying peoples hands at the tables, and doubling for people. How do you go about doing this? Do all casinos allow it?

RE 1: it should not matter, unless the pit in the HL room is more diligent than the pit in the LL room. i.e. they track bets better, and make a better point to make their customers happy.

RE 2: every casino i've played in allows other players to put up money on other peoples doubles. you just toss your chips to the player, they typically have to "touch" the chips one time for the eye in the sky, then all goes as normal. buying other people's hands is much more rare, i've never seen it done, i've only read about it, for me i don't imagine ever trying it unless i find someone really really desparate, but then even putting up money for someone else's double is confusing enough, i couldn't imagine trying to explain what i was doing while trying to buy someone's hand, much less expecting the dealer to understand, so i just avoid it. i'm also not betting at a level appropraiate to buy hands, you being at the $25 level, however are.

 

[shadroch]

2) I'm generally fairly talkative and try to build a small relationship with my tablemates.As the game progresses,and players are reluctant to make proper splits or double downs,I suggest they simply sell me their hands for what they have invested.at my favorite casino,they offer the Royal Match sidebet. As I almost never play it,I offer my spot up to whomever is playing it.Thus it is ntural that our "partnership" grows as it will.

 

[shadroch]

RE 1: it should not matter, unless the pit in the HL room is more diligent than the pit in the LL room. i.e. they track bets better, and make a better point to make their customers happy.

RE 2: every casino i've played in allows other players to put up money on other peoples doubles. you just toss your chips to the player, they typically have to "touch" the chips one time for the eye in the sky, then all goes as normal. buying other people's hands is much more rare, i've never seen it done, i've only read about it, for me i don't imagine ever trying it unless i find someone really really desparate, but then even putting up money for someone else's double is confusing enough, i couldn't imagine trying to explain what i was doing while trying to buy someone's hand, much less expecting the dealer to understand, so i just avoid it. i'm also not betting at a level appropraiate to buy hands, you being at the $25 level, however are.

Its not so much people are desperate,its that they don't know any better. Someone who never plays,and has been burned two or three times splitting Aces may be very reluctant to split them again.Nor is he thrilled with a hand of 2 or 12,so he will happily sell you his hand for his original bet.
I like to add money when someone is doubling down for less,but avoid offering to put up the DD money entirely,even if the guy is flat broke.Doing so can hurt the player,because he is giving up his right to more cards,for zero reward.

 

[Mimosine]

Its not so much people are desperate,its that they don't know any better. Someone who never plays,and has been burned two or three times splitting Aces may be very reluctant to split them again.Nor is he thrilled with a hand of 2 or 12,so he will happily sell you his hand for his original bet.
I like to add money when someone is doubling down for less,but avoid offering to put up the DD money entirely,even if the guy is flat broke.Doing so can hurt the player,because he is giving up his right to more cards,for zero reward.

i guess i lack the finesse necessary to pull off buying hands.... in terms of doubling down, i often will "take it upon myself" to double down for others full amount. having built a nice relationship with tablemates who are new to playing they often let me get the full advantage on their doubles. in a recent session, my entire winnings were made from making two key doubles with big bets --- i will double down in excess of my max bet, as it is a sure +EV. i don't get too carried away ~ +20% to my max bet is acceptable especially in high counts.

if someone was down to their last bet, i too would stay away from that, or from anyone who comes off as a hot head...

 

[EasyRhino]

It's definitely important to know which scenarios are a "win" for you in terms of splits and doubledowns (for that I would refer to the work of Mr. Renzey, but also Grosjean's article on scavenger blackjack). That way you can avoid hand interaction that is -EV (splitting 6s vs a 2).

If you want to be a nice guy, it's worth knowing which hands are "win-win" and which are "win-lose". Then you'd only goad the player into a split or double when it would be the best move anyway (finishing off doubles, doubling 10-11 vs. a stiff, splits with a positive expectation).

For me the trickiest play is to - quickly - negotiate with the player whether you are "buying" one of the hands, or if you're going in together on the results. Especially if you start getting into multiple splits and doubles.

Oh, and one place I was at the dealer scolded me that I wasn't allowed to split hands with another player (after the player had already agreed). So I just pushed some chips over to the player, said "here's twenty bucks", and he split the hands, and then pushed some chips back.

... actually this was a casino that I was backed off from on my next visit... coincidence?

 

[shadroch]

Okay,but when those players let you take full advantage by doubling down with only your money,they are hurting themselves.My rule of thunb is not to try to do anything to another player,I wouldn't do myself.
If I have an 11 vs 7, and no money left,I'm not letting anyone else double down on it. Suppose I get an Ace.I'm screwed because I let someone else try to make some money.I'd sell him the hand,for $10 if he wants,but he's not using my cards unless he's giving something in return.

 

[Cardcounter]

Hand interactions.

As far as buying a players hand I don't believe in that and have never seen it done. However I would go partners on a split or if a player doubled for less I would toss over the extra to fill in the double. Good times to go partners and buy a split your partner or table mate splits a pair of aces gets another ace and doesn't have enough to split I would toss the amount of the split next to him say I will pay for your split. He gets a chance to make a better hand and you get a profitable hand it is a win win situation. Another one of my favorite plays is the dealer is showing a 6 the person next to has a 7 and wants to double down make a side bet with the player next to that the dealer will make a hand. Don't make it more than the size of his bet.

 

[EasyRhino]

Okay,but when those players let you take full advantage by doubling down with only your money,they are hurting themselves.

Yes. And even if they only double with some of their own money, they're hurting themselves, at some point when doubling vs a high card they'd be better off just regular hitting.

I'll always encourage a player to make the right call re: doubling or splitting. I'll offer to go in with them if it's a win-win to further cajole them. And, well, if they offer me to go in on a win-lose, I won't turn them down. There are limits to my altruism.

 

[Mimosine]

It's definitely important to know which scenarios are a "win" for you in terms of splits and doubledowns (for that I would refer to the work of Mr. Renzey, but also Grosjean's article on scavenger blackjack). That way you can avoid hand interaction that is -EV (splitting 6s vs a 2).

as a quick rule of thumb for others reading this thread, all BS double downs are +EV and are safe to go partners on.

Renzey, points out some other important things in Bluebook II, that even some incorrect BS doubles, like 9v7 (if i recall), is +EV, so even when someone makes a mistaken double, and only "doubles for less" then you should aim to top off that bet.

for splitting it is far more complicated, typically all splits against 5,6 are +EV (if i recall), from there it gets foggier. i typically don't go in on splits unless i really like the person i'm going in with, because of the payout (i.e. how do you pay out the hand if one wins and one loses?), but my preferred solution to this is to divide the outcome no matter what happens. e.g. if one wins and one loses then we both push. rather than one of us winning and one of us losing. though when the double downs come out, ugh... i don't have much experience "buying splits" for these reasons, but i'm working on it.

 

[21forme]

as a quick rule of thumb for others reading this thread, all BS double downs are +EV and are safe to go partners on.

Not true. For example, 8,8 v 10.

 

[Sonny]

as a quick rule of thumb for others reading this thread, all BS double downs are +EV and are safe to go partners on.

Not true. For example, 8,8 v 10.

That would be a split, not a double down. I seem to recall that most splits are -EV except against a dealer's 5 or 6 (and a few 4s I think).

-Sonny-

 

[biggamejames]

Oh, and one place I was at the dealer scolded me that I wasn't allowed to split hands with another player (after the player had already agreed). So I just pushed some chips over to the player, said "here's twenty bucks", and he split the hands, and then pushed some chips back.

... actually this was a casino that I was backed off from on my next visit... coincidence?

Thats what i was about to say. Doing this might bring more attention to yourself and more or less give you away as counter

 

[Mimosine]

as a quick rule of thumb for others reading this thread, all BS double downs are +EV and are safe to go partners on.

Not true. For example, 8,8 v 10.

reprinted:

as a quick rule of thumb for others reading this thread, all BS double downs are +EV and are safe to go partners on.

Renzey, points out some other important things in Bluebook II, that even some incorrect BS doubles, like 9v7 (if i recall), is +EV, so even when someone makes a mistaken double, and only "doubles for less" then you should aim to top off that bet.

for splitting it is far more complicated

 

[shadroch]

Thats what i was about to say. Doing this might bring more attention to yourself and more or less give you away as counter

Making a proper BS play will identify you as a counter? Maybe in your mythical lil world where casino managers( did he look like James Caan,or the new guy) back off players for guessestimating the count,but not in the real world.

 

[21forme]

That would be a split, not a double down. I seem to recall that most splits are -EV except against a dealer's 5 or 6 (and a few 4s I think).

-Sonny-

Oops. That's what I get for reading quickly in between things at work

 

[biggamejames]

Making a proper BS play will identify you as a counter? Maybe in your mythical lil world where casino managers( did he look like James Caan,or the new guy) back off players for guessestimating the count,but not in the real world.

What is with this forum and people inventing their own arguments to start flame wars.

 

[Renzey]

Go Both Ways

If you can be observed sharing your own 2/2s, 3/3s, 6/6s and 7/7s vs. the dealer's 2 or 3 up as well as going in on other players' doubles -- particularly if some of them are incorrect B/S doubles such as 9 vs. 7, or 11 vs. A, or 8 vs. 6 etc., I seriously doubt whether somebody can clock the value of your play.