Contemplating Counting Systems

BradRod

Well-Known Member
Having put in a considerable amount of time as a counting player. I have noticed some intersting things about my personal counting abilities that I wanted to share with the group in the hopes that they might stimulate some discussion that will have value to all. I hope that this is not too personal a treatise that it does not have broader applicability to everyone who reads it. I also apologize if it is too long.

I do not have a particularly mathmetical orientation although I am very math able. Numbers are okay but, I think more visually as an architect. In my work as an architectect I can add and substract profficiently in units of feet and inches -- down to quarters. All the while doing conversions in my head of 1/4's , 1/2's of inches and then of inches as being 12th's of feet. I can also multiply in feet and inches ( converting inches to decimals as an intermediate step) to arrive at areas.

My statistical background is from a Masters degree that I earned in City and Regional Planning.

In one way I feel like chosing a counting system is an investment because you have to acquire the system, internalize it, practice it and then profficiency takes time too. I think the most critical consideration in choosing a system is that it is suited to your playing style , abilities and to your game and that it will win for you in the long run.

SO, mathemetical results aside I believe that different systems gives you different experiential insights into the game. For example, I think Hi-Lo demonstrates the basic value of 10's and the burden of 5's and 6's,

a 2 level system adds a greater precision to the value of intermediate cards that I was not aware of until I tried Omega II. It let me look at Aces differently in a more dynamic way too. I could definitely feel the power of the system while I was using it. I did find it quite mentally taxing over time though.

From KO I found a kind of visual way of seeing at the dynamic of the shoe. I have felt at times like I am watching an apple card tipping slowly until the center of gravity shifts and it goes beyond the pivot point and all the apples come tumbling out. It really has helped me to visulaize the fluctuation in the cards as the count travels along the average distribution line from beginning of shoe to end.

The unabalnced system to me is like a taking CAT Scan of the shoe and seeing its internal composition and dynamics.

At this point I am thinking that my results may be suffering from the lack of power of this system though.

Two recent postings by T Hopper and Zengrifter have inspired me and in my most recent outing at the tables I tried out a new counting technique. Same KO sytem

The postings (http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=2168) related to side counting and using letters as numbers--- Link by TH, and mnemonic systems----Link by ZG. These led me to draw on an ability that I have of counting using hebrew letters. I have been doing this since I was a kid and so the letters are almost the same as numbers to me.

In my recent outing I was using letters and numbers interchangeably, adding and subtracting in both systems at the same time. The results I found were

a. No amount of number calling by other players or the dealer could shake the count out of my head or make me uncertain as to whether I had not gotten derailed and lost the count.... That ever happen to you ? I was totally sure at every moment what the count was.

b. If I saw an interruption coming on ( fill of dealer's chip tray, new player buying in, change of dealer, dispute resolution , etc....) I immediately converted the count to letters and locked it in through the pause.

c. Expanded grey matter capacity. It was as though two numbering systems gave me twice the mental capacity . I felt no counting or playing decision stress through the play. I started playing word games in my mind using the same letters I was counting with.. It is like how it is much easier to remember all the words in a 10 word sentance than a series of 10 unrelated numbers.

Thanks both TH and ZG

If this gives anyone any ideas about how they might expand their grey matter ability while counting, I would like to hear about it

I think that using this method I can easily handle a 2 level system with a side count. I think I would like to stay with unbalanced. Anyone have any suggestions ??

Brad
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
> No amount of number calling by other players or the dealer could shake the count out of my head or make me uncertain as to whether I had not gotten derailed and lost the count.... That ever happen to you ? I was totally sure at every moment what the count was.

Yes, this does happen to me. In shoe games, the RC is +19 when the dealer calls out "17" or some other value of a hand played. I am sure this happens to me still.

>b. If I saw an interruption coming on ( fill of dealer's chip tray, new player buying in, change of dealer, dispute resolution , etc....) I immediately converted the count to letters and locked it in through the pause.

Another good point, I have forgotten the count in these situations as well. It sounds like you have found a good trick.

>If this gives anyone any ideas about how they might expand their grey matter ability while counting, I would like to hear about it

Don't grow old! It is interesting, but I have felt a subtle decline in my abilities over the last few years. I am 45 now, and I seem to forget or be distracted much more than when I started. Also, I don't have the stamina that I did just a few years ago (when I could work all day, drive to Vegas (5 hours) then play till dawn).

>I think that using this method I can easily handle a 2 level system with a side count. I think I would like to stay with unbalanced. Anyone have any suggestions ??

I can only talk about what I have used: Hi-lo, Hi-opt 1, and Halves. Hi-lo is by far the best count out there for many reasons, but let me list a few:

1) team mates all share the same system
2) ease of use -- little practice required
3) power of the system in shoe games
4) common language of counters everywhere
5) lots of "0's"
6) can play a long time without getting tired

Here are a few drawbacks to the system I use (halves):

1) not many people know it
2) almost no "0's" hence a lot of work
3) takes constant practice to keep it up to speed
4) wears me out quickly

I know many professionals who use Hi-Lo very successfully to this day. If you want more power, you have to decide the game you want to play. In that case, if you are going to specialize to shoes, don't bother with side counts, and the division is easy, to use a balanced count. In pitch games, sidecounts matter, so choose your system wisely. With sidecounts, TC conversions, etc., it is a lot of work.

My thoughts,

--Mayor
 

T-Hopper

Well-Known Member
Side counts don't matter in shoes?

I have some evidence to the contrary. First,

http://www.bjrnet.com/thop/sample3dchart.png

shows the difference between T-H Expert (side count of aces) and T-H Advanced(no side count) is obvious in a 6 deck game with good penetration.

Also, my classic post "6 Deck Bombshell: Playing Strategy is Key," reproduced below. This time, the cut was a meager 4.5/6.

I ran a series of simulations using my series of systems and also K-O Core from Knock-Out Blackjack by Ken Fuchs and Olaf Vancura and the "Dirty 32" from James Grosjean's book Beyond Counting. In all of these simulations, the same count was used for betting(2-7 +1 10, Ace -1).

6 decks 4.5 dealt S17 DAS No Splitting 10s 2 players 1-10 unit bet spread

Playing Strategy ROI Strategy Variations
K-O Core 0.10% Insurance only; "generic" basic strategy
T-H Basic 0.13% Insurance only; dollar-weighted basic strategy
T-H Intermediate 0.15% Top 2 dozen plays
T-H Advanced 0.17% Full set
T-H Expert 0.19% Extended set with ace side count
Dirty 32 0.20% Top 32 plays with custom multi-level counts for each
T-H Expert/Dirty 32 0.22% Combination of the above 2 systems

.

ROI is defined as the Win/100 Hands divided by the bankroll necessary for a 10% risk of ruin.

These numbers clearly show that even in a 6D game with a mediocre cut, there is a lot to be gained by using proper count-based playing strategy variation.
 

learning to count

Well-Known Member
{I can only talk about what I have used: Hi-lo, Hi-opt 1, and Halves. Hi-lo is by far the best count out there for many reasons, but let me list a few:

1) team mates all share the same system
2) ease of use -- little practice required
3) power of the system in shoe games
4) common language of counters everywhere
5) lots of "0's"
6) can play a long time without getting tired

I know many professionals who use Hi-Lo very successfully to this day. If you want more power, you have to decide the game you want to play. In that case, if you are going to specialize to shoes, don't bother with side counts, and the division is easy, to use a balanced count. In pitch games, sidecounts matter, so choose your system wisely. With sidecounts, TC conversions, etc., it is a lot of work.

My thoughts,

--M}

AAAAHHHH HI-LO! I agree the mayor is right but I would like to add that there is a lot of information, papers, research,etc on HILO. Most of it is free or available for purchase for less than ten bucks a book. I really like HI-LO because it is a challenge but yet I can bifercate my concentration and party along with the ploppies and dealers as I play. There are stronger systems but Hi-LO IMHO is very strong in the shoes and adequate for single and double deck.
Because of the large assortment of source material you can educate yourself beyond just being a player. You can identify amd calculate ror, ev, sd etc.
Keep on counting and stay out of the strat! LTC
 

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
It may help some to picture everything set around a clock. RC at 9, TC at 3, A denisty at 12, and all the other confussion between 9 and 3 the table. Place the RC at 9 because before you get your next deal you will convert it to TC, which is at 3 sitting over first base. Ace density can be pictured as a hand set before, after, or on the 12. This will be made into a "heads up" display on the inside of your glasses for the next batch of apre MIT count teams. It will leave your mind free to do other things.....

Coming to a theater near you......
 

BradRod

Well-Known Member
I do like visual images. When I picture Rob's clock it starts to resemble a spring action lawn sprinkler. The modulating arm pulled in by the spring, then forced out again through the force of the water pressure. keeping a rythmic beat over the lawn area.. (lawn area = 3 to 9 in McG's example. ) then it reaches the end of the arc (@ 9 o'clock) and quickly repositions itself to 3 o'clock.

In other words. The time between the last play at 3rd base to the start of the next deal at 1st base seems to pass very quickly.

More so when the dealer wipes out the table, scoops up chips and cards, deals... Less so when the dealer busts and goes around paying each player.
 
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