Does the race or gender of the suspected counter factor into a casino's decision to ban a player? Are casinos more reluctant to ban suspected counters who are minorites or women as opposed to white males? Especially with the way many hotels cater/pander to the Asian gaming market, it seems that an Asian counter playing some high $$$ would be less likely to be backed off then a white male counter. Also, with the threat of discimination charges looming over some hotels are they more reluctant to toss minorites in general who are suspected of counting?
Counter Profiling
- Thread starter CCR
- Start date
Rob McGarvey
Well-Known Member
I have stated previously that prejudice can work against the casino as much as it can against the player. I believe I was speaking to Victoria about the fact that being a woman can work to her advantage simply because the chuavinist attitude of casino persons could help her slip under the radar. I will not get into the particular characteristics of different minorities and how they can use them to their advantage since it may be mistaken as rude behaviour. I live in one of the most cosmopolitian multicultural cities on this planet, and the diversity is often overwhelming. One day we will all be one color, and possibly all speak the same language. There will continue to be pockets that remain out of touch, but in time, there will be no minorities. Now I wish I could amalgamate all the existing charities! dreaming again.........
Sooner or later they will discover the REAL truth. That you are a TRUE minority. You are an advantage player, the smallest group of people in the world, my brothers and sisters.
RM
Sooner or later they will discover the REAL truth. That you are a TRUE minority. You are an advantage player, the smallest group of people in the world, my brothers and sisters.
RM
I would imagine that some minorities may get a little more leeway than the white male. However, if a casino thinks you are a threat, they will take countermeasures, including banning (where allowed). Saw that happen to an Asian male at Resorts last year. Yes, Virginia, there is a grinch.
Who knows what evil lerks in the mind or lack of mind, of the pit
You probably have a good point about possible lawsuits but using the Asian player as an example: If they throw him out but have not done anything to the other 400 Asian gamblers staying at their hotel, it would be hard to prove they discriminated against him for being Asian. They discriminate against counters, but love ploppy of all types as long as they have money.
I think there is a general white male, non smoker or drinker, non tipper, studious type profile in the minds of most pit types, so if you do not fit that profile, you have an initial advantage in cover off the top. I feel though like all advantages, it can be lost, so cover is still important.
You probably have a good point about possible lawsuits but using the Asian player as an example: If they throw him out but have not done anything to the other 400 Asian gamblers staying at their hotel, it would be hard to prove they discriminated against him for being Asian. They discriminate against counters, but love ploppy of all types as long as they have money.
I think there is a general white male, non smoker or drinker, non tipper, studious type profile in the minds of most pit types, so if you do not fit that profile, you have an initial advantage in cover off the top. I feel though like all advantages, it can be lost, so cover is still important.
Rob McGarvey
Well-Known Member
Re: Who knows what evil lerks in the mind or lack of mind, of the pit
I know how you can get all upset after they turf you, but they are really just doing their job. If you can get away with it, great, but if they have any kind of problem with you, it is their right to keep you out. I look at it like the freedom of speech. That right may be protected by the federal government, but it is not protected under certain circumstances. Individual groups of people can force you to keep your mouth shut, take away your right to make money from casinos honestly, or kick you out.
I know how you can get all upset after they turf you, but they are really just doing their job. If you can get away with it, great, but if they have any kind of problem with you, it is their right to keep you out. I look at it like the freedom of speech. That right may be protected by the federal government, but it is not protected under certain circumstances. Individual groups of people can force you to keep your mouth shut, take away your right to make money from casinos honestly, or kick you out.
Re: Who knows what evil lerks in the mind or lack of mind, of the pit
I think there is a general white male, non smoker or drinker, non tipper, studious type profile in the minds of most pit types, so if you do not fit that profile, you have an initial advantage in cover off the top.
I guess I need to start smoking, drinking and tipping now. Damn, I thought gambling was a big enough vice that I didn't need the others. Do you think my wife will buy it? I doubt it. Do you think a little grease under the fingernails and not shaving for a few days will counter my "studious type profile?"
I think there is a general white male, non smoker or drinker, non tipper, studious type profile in the minds of most pit types, so if you do not fit that profile, you have an initial advantage in cover off the top.
I guess I need to start smoking, drinking and tipping now. Damn, I thought gambling was a big enough vice that I didn't need the others. Do you think my wife will buy it? I doubt it. Do you think a little grease under the fingernails and not shaving for a few days will counter my "studious type profile?"
or you could try
Sammy
You could try coming in as a Latina who likes to talk to the pit and dealer a lot but still keeps her count and indices. Or just try the non shaving.
Actually, I think that most of us worry more about cover than we really need too. I see ploppys spread like crazy and pit types getting concerned when the bets are big. Perhaps it is where I do most of my playing but red and green chip players seem to get no heat but black and purple are watched.
What does scare me is machines that can track your bets and the cards played, like Mindplay. I feel I can get by with most pit types but a machine can not be distracted, smiled at or talked too.
Sammy
You could try coming in as a Latina who likes to talk to the pit and dealer a lot but still keeps her count and indices. Or just try the non shaving.
Actually, I think that most of us worry more about cover than we really need too. I see ploppys spread like crazy and pit types getting concerned when the bets are big. Perhaps it is where I do most of my playing but red and green chip players seem to get no heat but black and purple are watched.
What does scare me is machines that can track your bets and the cards played, like Mindplay. I feel I can get by with most pit types but a machine can not be distracted, smiled at or talked too.
DoctorJames
Member
All the profiling articles I have read state the white, bearded, under-dressed, studious looking male are the big red suv in the sea of white geos. So I would say dress a part... Business, pimpish, or possibly something more extreme if necessary. Normal people dont go gambling dressed like its the middle of the week and I forgot to shave yesterday. They go looking slightly nice, or very nicely attired to impress those around, possible pick up the opposite sex, and so forth. You need to look like throwing around 10-60 bones on a hand isnt out of the ordinary for you in day to day life. Let alone pulling out 50 after 50 or C-note after C-note for checks. Normal people do not do that. People with some money do that. Upper Middle America, so I would recommend looking like your bankroll, and modify that with the time of the day... Daytime, look like a business person, as Wong suggests, playing hooky from the office. Just my opinion. Sammy I would say shave. Of coarse, certain times of the day weild different casino goers, but even the old ladies come in their nice sweaters and red lipstick. =)
Best profile of all is to limit your session length. Bnag them and go before they have time to get a read on ya. White males probably get heat quicker than other folks but they are also probably less likely to be remember than the "woman" counter who we tossed last week. I have returned to play in the same casino the next day after a back of and survived; they back off lots of youn (ok so so young anymore) white guys and I left quickly and quietly.
good luck
wong out
good luck
wong out
Automatic Monkey
Banned
OK Rob if you won't say it I will. Unfortunately a lot of the majority associate being a Hispanic or Black person with low intelligence and would not suspect them of being able to count, and associate being White or Asian with high intelligence and being capable of counting. It's a bunch of crap. But we of all people have seen our share of illogical thinking in casinos, haven't we? They might also think that a female doesn't have the mathematical ability or the guts to count. Now the second part there, not to upset anybody, but there is more of a reason to believe that. There is very little difference between the men of the different races, but the differences between men and women are really there, and it's true that most (but not all) women shun risk-taking behavior.
Either way, whatever advantage you have in escaping detection, you've got to use it. Me, I'm the size of the average NFL linebacker, so I drink like a fish and act drunk, but in reality the 4 or 5 martinis I have had have barely affected me. I usually wear a jacket and/or tie, and play the raconteur; talk to the other players, the pit people, dealer, other players, even the waitress can be used to your advantage. And at the same time you are giving them a little bit of valuable advice, so it is win-win. Except for the casino of course.
Christmas Eve. I thought the casino would be empty- no way- they specialize in Asian entertainment on the Christian holidays so the casino was jam-packed with Oriental folk. I finally got a seat at a $25 table, and was the only Occidental at the pit, let alone the table. After playing a little while, the little old Korean lady sitting next to me nudged me on the leg, smiled broadly, and gave me a huge wink. You never can tell, can you?
Either way, whatever advantage you have in escaping detection, you've got to use it. Me, I'm the size of the average NFL linebacker, so I drink like a fish and act drunk, but in reality the 4 or 5 martinis I have had have barely affected me. I usually wear a jacket and/or tie, and play the raconteur; talk to the other players, the pit people, dealer, other players, even the waitress can be used to your advantage. And at the same time you are giving them a little bit of valuable advice, so it is win-win. Except for the casino of course.
Christmas Eve. I thought the casino would be empty- no way- they specialize in Asian entertainment on the Christian holidays so the casino was jam-packed with Oriental folk. I finally got a seat at a $25 table, and was the only Occidental at the pit, let alone the table. After playing a little while, the little old Korean lady sitting next to me nudged me on the leg, smiled broadly, and gave me a huge wink. You never can tell, can you?
Rob McGarvey
Well-Known Member
I enjoyed your post immensely. You said what you thought should be said in the right fashion. Much of what we are depends on how we have been brought up and exposed to, and what we chose to add or take away from who we want to be. There are as many anomalies in sociology as there are typical characteristics in this race or that culture. Each person is unique, yet deserves to be treated the same way as anyone else does. This is where the casino fails, and often where we fail as we pigeon hole one and other. As an AP, we have to think beyond and between these lines, as you have done, to come up with something we can use to our favour. How well we can see their prejudice is often how much we can get that extra edge on them. We should get Eliot to teach a course on Psy-Ops for the AP........smile
Rob McGarvey
Well-Known Member
Re: More reason for the casinos to pay
You GO girl! smile Do you think it makes a difference in your case that you are of your race and that you are a woman? Do you think they treat you differently than a white male?
You GO girl! smile Do you think it makes a difference in your case that you are of your race and that you are a woman? Do you think they treat you differently than a white male?
Yes and I don't think so
Rob
Yes, being a woman is a definate advantage going in. That preconception of the pit is real but you still can not be obvious. Also, I will get the pit type who wants to flirt, so he may well be distracted.
There is another thing that I think I may have posted here before. In a couple of places in Vegas that I always go to, I can sit down at the table and the guys will start betting more sometimes. I watched one poor guy start betting between $500-$2,000 and talking to me, trying to impress me, and then he started trying to get it all back by flat betting the 2G (table max). Poor guy must have lost 30,000 in the session, taped out his credit line and left. This kind of thing has happened often enough that I notice it and I think this one bit boss, who might even know I count, has noticed it also. She always treats me real well. Does that make me their shill???
On the race thing, I never have thought about it and I am not obviously Hispanic. I could easily say I was Italian, Greek, Jewish or someone similar without any question. So, in my case there is no real advantage there.
Rob
Yes, being a woman is a definate advantage going in. That preconception of the pit is real but you still can not be obvious. Also, I will get the pit type who wants to flirt, so he may well be distracted.
There is another thing that I think I may have posted here before. In a couple of places in Vegas that I always go to, I can sit down at the table and the guys will start betting more sometimes. I watched one poor guy start betting between $500-$2,000 and talking to me, trying to impress me, and then he started trying to get it all back by flat betting the 2G (table max). Poor guy must have lost 30,000 in the session, taped out his credit line and left. This kind of thing has happened often enough that I notice it and I think this one bit boss, who might even know I count, has noticed it also. She always treats me real well. Does that make me their shill???
On the race thing, I never have thought about it and I am not obviously Hispanic. I could easily say I was Italian, Greek, Jewish or someone similar without any question. So, in my case there is no real advantage there.