Counting in PA - Consequences

[BookerPA]

I had a lengthy conversation this morning with a friend who is in a position to know the consequences of being identified as an AP at any of the casinos in PA. This individual related to me the circumstances of several incidents where they have identified AP's.

Initially, they have taken the position that card counting is not illegal; however, the casinos have the right to refuse admittance to anyone for any reason, dress, appearance, etc.

Although it is not considered a criminal act, they will identify you, photograph you and enter this information into a binder which they have inappropriately labeled "Cheaters". You will also be informed that you are not welcome at the particular casino where you were identified, and if you should return to that particular establishment, you will be arrested for trespassing.
They do share this information with all PA casinos.

 

[blackchipjim]

Being made

It comes as no surprise that they follow normal identification and barring procedures. Some of the people I observe inside the joints are quite blantant about what they are doing. If I was in charge of some of the places I've been I could dog toss at least one a day. Aps get sloppy or too comfortable and let thier gaurd down and get made. If you have a big ego they will chop you down just like the little saplings in the forest.:laugh:

 

[BookerPA]

Blackchipjim, another piece of info from my conversation, with regard to three card poker, they have a scanner that scans the cards as they are dealt, and so they know each individual's hand. They use this for the people who switch cards to make winning hand. For this type of behavior, they arrest you on the spot.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Blackchipjim, another piece of info from my conversation, with regard to three card poker, they have a scanner that scans the cards as they are dealt, and so they know each individual's hand. They use this for the people who switch cards to make winning hand. For this type of behavior, they arrest you on the spot.

Switching cards is not the right way to cheat at 3CP. The best way is for one partner to play a minimum bet and the other to play a big bet, and switch the entire (better) hand to the big betting player.

 

[BookerPA]

Switching cards is not the right way to cheat at 3CP. The best way is for one partner to play a minimum bet and the other to play a big bet, and switch the entire (better) hand to the big betting player.

AM, never played the game, but the point I was making, and I was unaware of this, that as the cards are dealt from the CSM, according to what this individual told me and without putting them at risk, they would definitely know, they have a scanner and know what each individual's hand is and what position or place the hand is.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

the 3CP shufflers have a small scanner that allows them to verify hands, so if someone is suspected of cheating, they can verify that the cards dealt were part of the hand played. In my experience, this is typically reserved for large pair plus payouts (3 of a kind or better).

 

[SWFL Blackjack]

Not only do the ShuffleMaster 3CP shufflers have a camera (I don’t think ACE machines do, but I may be wrong), but many times surveillance is called to review the round before a large payout is issued. If they have you on camera swapping cards, you have absolutely no way of getting out of this one. You have committed a crime, you will be arrested and you'll have no rebuttal. What is even scarier is if you are playing at an Indian casino, it is hard saying what they are capable of since you are in a sovereign nation that doesn't have to observe the same laws the rest of us do.

Bottom line: Beat casinos the LEGAL way!

 

[SWFL Blackjack]

I had a lengthy conversation this morning with a friend who is in a position to know the consequences of being identified as an AP at any of the casinos in PA. This individual related to me the circumstances of several incidents where they have identified AP's.

Initially, they have taken the position that card counting is not illegal; however, the casinos have the right to refuse admittance to anyone for any reason, dress, appearance, etc.

Although it is not considered a criminal act, they will identify you, photograph you and enter this information into a binder which they have inappropriately labeled "Cheaters". You will also be informed that you are not welcome at the particular casino where you were identified, and if you should return to that particular establishment, you will be arrested for trespassing.
They do share this information with all PA casinos.

Everybody knows that card counting isn't illegal, however if you put yourself in the place of the casino, there is one important thing to consider: From an abstract view, a casino is supposed to be a business where people walk in, give some money, occasionally get some small rewards in return for the money they give, and leave. The last thing a person with a vested interest in the casino wants is a person who doesn’t adhere to the basic business model. They look at their casino as a giant wishing well. They’ll let you throw money into the well all day, but the second they discovering you are taking money out of it, they want you gone. If they don’t stop you, others will see you and start taking the money too.
Besides, doesn’t this cat and mouse aspect add excitement to the monotony of counting?

 

[aslan]

Although it is not considered a criminal act, they will identify you, photograph you and enter this information into a binder which they have inappropriately labeled "Cheaters".

Gee, I wonder if we have another defamation of character suit ala Grosjean coming up?

 

[ArcticInferno]

Basically, PA is just like Las Vegas.
Naturally, you don’t have to give them your true identity, not that your true identity really matters if you always play unrated.
I neeever carry my driver’s license into the casino, even though they can’t frisk you.
By the way, they must re-read the trespassing mumbo jumbo and remind you that you were backed off or barred on so and so date, because everybody forgets that they were backed off or barred.
They must also give you an opportunity to cash out and leave.
You can *never* get arrested. Here’s the reason why.
You don’t get arrest for trespassing or being on the premises.
You get arrested for forcefully refusing to leave when asked by a police officer.

 

[aslan]

Initially, they have taken the position that card counting is not illegal; however, the casinos have the right to refuse admittance to anyone for any reason, dress, appearance, etc.

I know you know full well that a business can refuse admittance for any reason whatsoever, but I'm not sure they can always make it stick. Other than protected groups, if you bar someone for, say, parting their hair on the right side, yes, the police will support your right of refusal. However, the barred person does have recourse to the courts which may rule that your refusal of service was arbitrary, and that the business had no specific interest in refusing service.

 

[ArcticInferno]

A while back, I read in some book that the origin of barring started with restaurants and alcohol.
If a drunken customer causes a ruckus and disturbs other customers, then the restaurant has the right to refuse to serve more alcohol to him, and also ask him to leave. From then on, the law evolved to include other establishments including casinos.
However, note that the origin of the law was to protect the decent customers who simply wanted to enjoy a peaceful dining experience.
We AP’s actually want to maintain peace and not attract attention to ourselves.

 

[SWFL Blackjack]

I think it would be great to start a team made up entirely of members of protected groups (minorities, etc.) and when they are 86'd, all they have to do is play the discrimination card and the casino will probably back-off since they do not want the bad press nor the threat of a lawsuit.

 

[BJgenius007]

Artifacts for sale

I think it would be great to start a team made up entirely of members of protected groups (minorities, etc.) and when they are 86'd, all they have to do is play the discrimination card and the casino will probably back-off since they do not want the bad press nor the threat of a lawsuit.

I have obtained some artifacts from Warehouse 13. A hat that makes everyone surrounding you see you as a black. A pair of glasses makes you an Asian to who looks at you. Will this help you?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I think it would be great to start a team made up entirely of members of protected groups (minorities, etc.) and when they are 86'd, all they have to do is play the discrimination card and the casino will probably back-off since they do not want the bad press nor the threat of a lawsuit.

When you find a fat black lesbian cripple over 40 who wears a burqa, let me know. I'll be her service animal and call her plays.

 

[blackchipjim]

Profiling

There are numerous books that lay out in plain language who fits the counter profile. The question you have to ask yourself is " do I fit the profile?". It would be non-productive for joints to bar everyone that is showing signs of playing with an advantage. You as a counter have to fit outside the box or bear the consequences. There is a science to playing without getting barred or backed off and you have to learn the lessons.

 

[StudiodeKadent]

I agree that labelling the file "cheaters" is arguably defamatory. If the file were called "card counters" that would be accurate, non-defamatory, and still perform exactly the same purpose for the casinos; listing people they don't want in.

Whilst I am not personally a card counter (although yes, I technically employ comp hustling techniques to get more free drinks and lessen my actual hands played per hour, which does allegedly make me a form of advantage gambler depending on who you ask), I do not consider card counting cheating.

 

[aslan]

There are numerous books that lay out in plain language who fits the counter profile. The question you have to ask yourself is " do I fit the profile?". It would be non-productive for joints to bar everyone that is showing signs of playing with an advantage. You as a counter have to fit outside the box or bear the consequences. There is a science to playing without getting barred or backed off and you have to learn the lessons.

I don't know the science, but I have only been backed off once. Arguably, I could be playing so poorly that they let the poor sap [me] continue to do his thing. Sometimes, I think the same thing, especially when I deliberately play a near break even game favoring minimization of short term losses over maximization of long term gains. But that's my prerogative I suppose--when I'm flush I tend to spread full or more.

 

[moo321]

Back on point, I know someone who definitely got backed off in PA. So it can and has happened.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

There are numerous books that lay out in plain language who fits the counter profile. The question you have to ask yourself is " do I fit the profile?". It would be non-productive for joints to bar everyone that is showing signs of playing with an advantage. You as a counter have to fit outside the box or bear the consequences. There is a science to playing without getting barred or backed off and you have to learn the lessons.

I read the #1 suspect for counting cards is White, College-aged males who dress "nicely" (in between super casual and formal). I think wearing glasses made it even worse. Also people who keep their chips in nice neat piles.

I would add playing 2 hands to that list.

It sounds like a stereotype but I was playing the other day, saw a player who fit this to a T, and after 5 minutes realized yep he was counting.