Counting system comparison charts

[fwb]

I'm trying to graduate from hi-lo and wanted to get an idea of what I should move on to. But according to this chart:http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm you actually lose some bet correlation power by switching to something more advanced like zen for example....why? Also, KO is often called the "rookie" system, sacrificing power with simplicity, but it appears to be more powerful in all aspects than hi-lo? I stayed away from KO because I thought it was weaker. So far it looks like changing to a more complicated system has a negligible advantage and would not really be worth the extra headache. Comments?

 

[ChefJJ]

I can speak for KO because that's what I've used...and that was after using Hi-Lo for a while. KO is sometimes called "rookie" because that is a slimmed-down version of the complete system. The full version isn't really that much harder to learn and with that, you can customize it to the wazoo.

For example, you can adjust the beginning count point and the key/pivot points to match what suits you. Heck, I've even "renamed" the key indicators you look for and slid the counting scale to my liking for use at the table. That way, it triggers things in my mind for betting and index plays. But enough about my preferences...

The lack of a RC/TC conversion is probably its most popular feature, and learning to count 7's as +1 is not hard to adapt to at all. Beyond that, you can use the core index plays as presented, and those correlate to only a few count points. So basically you are looking for only a few different count points to go against BS...not bad at all. Or, you can even use the Appendices to make it more complex (but I keep it simple).

Anyways, I probably sound like a marketing consultant for KO, but that's what I use and why I use it. I hope others give their viewpoints on other systems so you can pick a winner.

good luck

 

[LeonShuffle]

If you ask me (which no one did) Red 7's the way to go. It's the precursor to KO in that it's unbalanced and very easy. And I think it's more accurate since 7s are not as detrimental as the lower cards. Also, all playing strategy variations are still determined by the running count, however you can be more accurate in determining your bet by using the "true index" method, which according to Arnold Snyder is an even more accurate method of determining your percent advantage than the true count conversion of hi-lo or other balanced counts. Once you get used to counting the red 7s but not the black, it becomes second nature and won't slow you down at all. I count down a deck in 14 seconds usually.

 

[aslan]

So far, your only responses have been probably the two simplest systems out there. I use KO and find it exactly as Chef described. I was preparing to switch to Zen or UBZ, but the guys here talked some sense into me. Why change a system that is winning for me, that I already have down pat, for one that is more complicated, will be easier to make errors in, and which will not improve my winnings except by a very small percentage? I've stuck with KO and am happy I did. Maybe later if I have the leisure time, I'll learn another system, and if I perfect it in practice, I'll give it a try on the tables. But I'm in no hurry to complicate my life and am enjoying the benefits of what I already know.

I checked out red 7. It is comparable to KO. I don't want to mess with true count or true index. I have come up with some quick and dirty adjustments to KO to adjust for KO lagging behind the TC in negative counts. Haven't tried it yet though. You can customize KO just about any way you want, but the one thing I don't want to do is sacrifice its simplicity for the extra power. I don't think it's worth it.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

That's an interesting answer Aslan. Caution vs future unexpected/uncertain results.

What I'm starting to realize is that the second system isn't so hard to learn as the first one was. So adding a few different values to the cards might not be the witch I'd originally thought it would be.

Just today I tried the Zen count at S-L-O-W pace. Can visualize getting used to it rather quickly. Seems to negate a noticeable bit of the house edge in lower numbers. This was the most obvious to me and seems like a real value for my specific needs. Could significantly cut my losses in unlucky shoes. Or just plain low counts. I'm not always comfortable with wonging out on some tables. Unless they are REALLY negative numbers.

At first I was all freaked out over the speed of the dealer. Even with just the Hi/Lo simple count. Then there was my fragile and slim bankroll. I really should have bought a book sooner.

However with those hurdles now passed it seems easier to grasp a second level counting system than i once thought it would be.

I feel like comparing learning a new system back to long ago when I starting a new job at a warehouse:

At first i didn't know where anything was located. Took me weeks just to stop asking other people stupid questions about where stuff was located. Fear would nearly paralyze my mind. But before long I could not only identify what aisle such and such was located but could tell how much of this or that was on the shelf. Just from memory.

Later still when a new product came out on the shelves it it was simple to add each item to my mental list. including the retail, contractor and wholesale price. The boss was impressed and used to call me "Encyclopedia Wiley".

I wasn't that bright but the basics were in place. Adding additional tasks or memory didn't clutter up the mind. not like in my early days on the job.

And so it is i think with the second tier systems. You already know 95% of what's in the warehouse. The extra 5% ain't that hard to handle.

 

[Brock Windsor]

So Im told Red 7 will have better BC while KO will have better PE, but the difference is small. I started with KO and now use TKO with Hi-Lo index numbers. Hi-Lo or KO not a big dif. If you play shoe games KO is best. With Single or double-deck games index plays become more significant so might want to stick with high-low or go to a level 2 system. Either way the system you play with the most accuracy and least fatigue will best serve your purpose.

 

[zengrifter]

I started with KO and now use TKO with Hi-Lo index numbers.

Thats a good system, with the full ZG-60 indices.

I assume that your 'HiLo indices' have each been adjusted for KO count, that you are not using un-adjusted HiLo#s? zg

 

[ChefJJ]

What I'm starting to realize is that the second system isn't so hard to learn as the first one was.

I definitely agree with that. Knowing any legit counting system provides a foundation that you can build off of when learning another.

 

[aslan]

That's an interesting answer Aslan. Caution vs future unexpected/uncertain results.

What I'm starting to realize is that the second system isn't so hard to learn as the first one was. So adding a few different values to the cards might not be the witch I'd originally thought it would be.

Just today I tried the Zen count at S-L-O-W pace. Can visualize getting used to it rather quickly. Seems to negate a noticeable bit of the house edge in lower numbers. This was the most obvious to me and seems like a real value for my specific needs. Could significantly cut my losses in unlucky shoes. Or just plain low counts. I'm not always comfortable with wonging out on some tables. Unless they are REALLY negative numbers.

At first I was all freaked out over the speed of the dealer. Even with just the Hi/Lo simple count. Then there was my fragile and slim bankroll. I really should have bought a book sooner.

However with those hurdles now passed it seems easier to grasp a second level counting system than i once thought it would be.

I feel like comparing learning a new system back to long ago when I starting a new job at a warehouse:

At first i didn't know where anything was located. Took me weeks just to stop asking other people stupid questions about where stuff was located. Fear would nearly paralyze my mind. But before long I could not only identify what aisle such and such was located but could tell how much of this or that was on the shelf. Just from memory.

Later still when a new product came out on the shelves it it was simple to add each item to my mental list. including the retail, contractor and wholesale price. The boss was impressed and used to call me "Encyclopedia Wiley".

I wasn't that bright but the basics were in place. Adding additional tasks or memory didn't clutter up the mind. not like in my early days on the job.

And so it is i think with the second tier systems. You already know 95% of what's in the warehouse. The extra 5% ain't that hard to handle.

I agree with everything you say. I don't think it will be that hard for me to learn Zen either. I do think there would be more error in my play for a while, and I do not particularly want to contend with TC conversions, especially in the heat of battle on a fast deal. So I'm content for the time being to stay with KO--I don't make errors and it's return is close to the more precise systems. Also, I have developed a couple of TC conversions to make my ramping up more accurate depending on the number of decks remaining, but not enough to make the system noticeably more difficult. Good luck on ZEN; if I ever decide to move up it will either be to ZEN or UBZ most likely, but then, only if I am already perfect in practice sessions.

 

[aslan]

So Im told Red 7 will have better BC while KO will have better PE, but the difference is small. I started with KO and now use TKO with Hi-Lo index numbers. Hi-Lo or KO not a big dif. If you play shoe games KO is best. With Single or double-deck games index plays become more significant so might want to stick with high-low or go to a level 2 system. Either way the system you play with the most accuracy and least fatigue will best serve your purpose.

What do you consider the main advantage of TKO over KO? Should I move to it from KO? Is it just more indices borrowed from Hi Lo? I play shoe games mainly in AC, but 2 or 3 times a year I go to Vegas where I play mainly DD games. Maybe I need both systems.

 

[eps6724]

If you ask me (which no one did) Red 7's the way to go. It's the precursor to KO in that it's unbalanced and very easy.

You can flesh it out farther using Rezny's KISS system (identical to red7 but counts rblack 2's instead). Because I learned red7 first, I STILL count as if red7, but use the other things Rezny talks of in Blackbelt Bluebook II.

As far as to what's better, also check out how red7 (KISS count, same thing) rates against KO and Hi-Lo in Sleshinger's Blackjack Attack.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

i really need to get myself cvcx so i can compare the different versions of KO with hi-lo to find out which system is best for 6 decks if your either betting flat or spreading 1-2.. it just really bothers me that the count in KO can be significantly different depending how many decks have been dealt, which i guess means that all unbalanced counts would bother me.. on the other hand, i have difficulty with the true count, but then again i havent even practiced with it at all.. i seem to be the only one that did very little practice and just went into the casino and started counting, but all i really do is keep a running count with my chips and occasionally check what the TC is to the nearest full deck, and then when i divide i just say "ok its more than 3" or whatever it is, i dont calculate "its 3.75" or something.. the one thing that you always hear is "such and such isnt significant because most of the advantage comes from betting", but what if none of your advantage comes from betting, but from wonging? then how important do indexes and all those other insignificant things become? i would guess the more you spread, the less important everything else is, but then the opposite would be true that if you are spreading 1-2, indexes and such become a larger % of your advantage

 

[Beast]

reKO

Hi,

I have started training someone and am starting them with Norm Wattenburger's reKO. It is even easier than KO hence the name "really easy" KO. It only has one number for all plays! I have been looking at this count for the last week running sims. I modified it just a little keeping most of the simplicity. My modifications have brought it up to almost the strength of the HiLo will full index numbers for 1 and 2 decks - haven't worked on the shoes yet - and that's strictly without using TC. I am even considering switching to this system so we will be playing with the same count. Sure, I will give up about $10 to $15 an hour expected return playing quarters, but I know I can play the reKOmod system effortlessly coming from the HiOptII with 2 side counts. Sometimes when playing HO2 I have to stop for a second and make all the calculations for some plays/bets like side count adjustments and TC. I know that when I am carrying on a conversation at the table my bets/plays calculations get lazy and I might miss a close play/bet. It is nice to know that would never happen again even though I would still lose quite a bit; but, not enough to cause me to sleep at night.

Just my 2 cents,

Beast

 

[zengrifter]

{BROCK'S TKO} I assume that your 'HiLo indices' have each been adjusted for KO count, that you are not using un-adjusted HiLo#s? zg

Hey Brock, was this ever resolved? zg

 

[Brock Windsor]

Hey Brock, was this ever resolved? zg

Im converting KO to a true count (TKO). That involves making your IRC = to the number of decks * -4. From there simply divide your RC by decks remaining and treat -4 as equal to a HiLo TC of 0. So if RC/decks remaining = -1, That is equivalent to a HiLo TC of +3. I apply all the HiLo index numbers for playing strategy decisions. It won't be as accurate as specific TKO index numbers, but for all practical purposes I believe it is stronger than KO and HiLo with about the same level of difficulty. Great for shoe games.
BW