CTRs

[blackriver]

I accidently hijacked BJA's thread the other day. The topic deff needs its own thread so here it is. Ive quoted the relevant posts so if a mod wants to clean up his thread, go for it.

i know this is kinda ridiculous, but do people just win 10k and cashout 2.4 and come back 16 or 30hrs later to play and cash out another ~2k as long as they dont lose more than 5k (10 - 2.5x2 )back? maybe this is what locals do. also maybe we should start a clearing house? so u could trade ur 7.5k (10-2.5) for 2500 in ti, 2500 in cec and 2500 palms etc

Everyone I know who wins more than $10,000 has someone else cash in some of their chips. I have not heard that personal information is requested from anyone cashing in under $10,000, but even if they do, if it's under $10,000, it's not reported to the IRS.

I have personally been required to give ID cashing out >$2500. First time I had no clue this rule even existed. Last time it was cashing out $2300. Tried to get them to give me back a few blacks to stop the process but they refused. I'll keep it under $2000 from now on.

I do remember some thread last year that talked about some IRS paper process that was initiated at a lesser amount than $10,000, $2,500 comes to mind, but does not result in a CTR. Were you able to challenge giving up your ID?

But no matter for those who have other people cash some of their chips. I do not think the casino is much concerned about tracking big winners except for internal purposes, player rating. I don't think the information collected at $2,500 is reported outside the casino. Perhaps, they are required to keep records for some future eventuality, or specific IRS request. We may need a thread to explore any modifications to the IRS reporting and recordkeeping requirements for casinos.

The C.T.R. to the Treasury Dept. is triggered by EXCEEDING $10,000.
Lesser amounts, like $2,500, are merely the casino's own procedures.

"That rule really killed the high roller business."



Checks, credit, money orders, wire transfers, saved large denomination chips
are ALL methods that I have used for two decades to avoid the dread C.T.R.

IF I am playing (carded), cashing out for a large sum,
I ask for a check and am always accommodated.

Not on either occasion. First one was no big deal, I'm well known there, just didn't know they needed ID.

Last time wasn't a big deal either although I had been playing unrated. I told the cage I didn't have a card and they were a little confused when they entered my name into the computer and found out that I did have one. Really?? I do?? Nothing happened, no paperwork was completed.

This may be of interest. If a casino suspects that you are cashing chips in several transactions to avoid a CTR filing ($10,000 threshold), they are required to file an SAR. This is one reason they might ask a patron for their ID when cashing chips of a lower value than $10,000.

Since March 25, 2003, casinos have been required to file Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) when the casino knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect that a transaction (or a group of related transactions) involving $5,000 or more meets one of the following descriptions:

• Involves funds derived from illegal activity or is intended to conceal funds derived from illegal activity;
• Is intended to avoid or prevent the filing of a Currency Transaction Report for Casinos (CTRC);
• Has no apparent business or other lawful purpose;
• Is not the type normally expected from that particular customer; or
• Involves the use of the casino to facilitate criminal activity.

http://www.americangaming.org/assets/files/SARC_Policy_(6).pdf (Archive copy).
​

 

[aslan]

I accidently hijacked BJA's thread the other day. The topic deff needs its own thread so here it is. Ive quoted the relevant posts so if a mod wants to clean up his thread, go for it.

I still remember something the casino had to fill out at less than $10,000 (maybe $5,000 or $2,500), but it wasn't a filing, just some new IRS record keeping requirement. Maybe it was only for certain casinos, like only Vegas, I can't remember, but it was talked about here on the forum.

I searched a little for it, but I can't find anything yet other than what I posted above.

 

[pit15]

At one casino I play at regularly if I have a big win (or just a huge buy in I won back...), I'll cash out 5k at one cage, show a player card (they document the cashout), then cash out 3k at another cage... No documentation.

After that I keep the chips.

I won't cash out more then 8k a day regardless of whether it's documented or not. Why dick around with getting hit by some ctr evasion charge?

Of course, different story if you're leaving a place you won't go back to for a while. If you're going back within a month then there's no reason you can't keep the chips. If your bankroll is so small that you need the cash right away you have problems.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

My experience with big wins like that haven been in LV, and the first time I cashed out a lot was $5k and I cashed out a 5k chip cause I didn't know better and I had to give ID but I don't remember signing anything.

I've also been ID'd at the Mirage for sure when cashing out 2k but it could be my age?

Now whenever I win chips I just hold onto them and cash them out and play with them. Then towards the end of the trip I split them up among team mates and cash them out.

I got backed of at a place and then 2 days later had to cash out 5k+ in chips and the lady at the cage kept asking for my players card and I kept saying "No, don't have one, No." She found it very odd that I didn't use a PC while winning that much but eventually she gave in.

 

[blackriver]

My experience with big wins like that haven been in LV, and the first time I cashed out a lot was $5k and I cashed out a 5k chip cause I didn't know better and I had to give ID but I don't remember signing anything.

I've also been ID'd at the Mirage for sure when cashing out 2k but it could be my age?

Now whenever I win chips I just hold onto them and cash them out and play with them. Then towards the end of the trip I split them up among team mates and cash them out.

I got backed of at a place and then 2 days later had to cash out 5k+ in chips and the lady at the cage kept asking for my players card and I kept saying "No, don't have one, No." She found it very odd that I didn't use a PC while winning that much but eventually she gave in.

these stories sound so crazy to me. i guess what im afraid of is what happens when they dont back down, or do they always? If i make a big scene then finally have to show some ID then havent i made matters much worse by drawing attentiuon to myself? namely by behaving like an AP?

 

[aslan]

these stories sound so crazy to me. i guess what im afraid of is what happens when they dont back down, or do they always? If i make a big scene then finally have to show some ID then havent i made matters much worse by drawing attentiuon to myself? namely by behaving like an AP?

I'd say so.

 

[21forme]

these stories sound so crazy to me. i guess what im afraid of is what happens when they dont back down, or do they always? If i make a big scene then finally have to show some ID then havent i made matters much worse by drawing attentiuon to myself? namely by behaving like an AP?

Put Gaming's phone number in you cell phone. Firsxt, threaten to call them. If they don't back down, place the call.

 

[aslan]

Put Gaming's phone number in you cell phone. Firsxt, threaten to call them. If they don't back down, place the call.

That should be an attention getter. And I thought you were a low profile player? :laugh: :whip:

 

[21forme]

That should be an attention getter. And I thought you were a low profile player? :laugh: :whip:

I try to be, but you have to fight fire with fire. it happened to me at Mirage a few years ago.

Had a very nice + variance session and went to the cage to cash out 3K, made in about 30 minutes. Cage babe talked to supr, then asks for ID. I asked why and she said to make sure I had no markers. I said I didn't have ID with me and pointed to the pit and said "I bought in with cash. Call them. That's where I played. Do I need to contact Gaming?" Little huddle in cage, phone call, chips cashed. Went back 2 days later, different shift, and backed off within 3 minutes of sitting down. Obviously they had my pic handy. Stayed away a few months and no problems since then.

 

[Sonny]

I still remember something the casino had to fill out at less than $10,000 (maybe $5,000 or $2,500), but it wasn't a filing, just some new IRS record keeping requirement. Maybe it was only for certain casinos, like only Vegas, I can't remember, but it was talked about here on the forum.

I searched a little for it, but I can't find anything yet other than what I posted above.

Was it from this thread?

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6613

"...casino policies can differ and any refusal of ID, whether cashing out $2000 or $10000, will result in a SAR. My casino is requiring IDs and SSNs for $4000 and over buy in or cash out and already we're filing SARs and the law hasnt even taken effect yet."

-Sonny-

 

[MeWin$]

For

For whatever reason, The Mirage cage asks for a player card under 3g's even 1300 or so if memory serves. So it wasnt just you.

 

[aslan]

Was it from this thread?

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6613

"...casino policies can differ and any refusal of ID, whether cashing out $2000 or $10000, will result in a SAR. My casino is requiring IDs and SSNs for $4000 and over buy in or cash out and already we're filing SARs and the law hasnt even taken effect yet."

-Sonny-

This may have been it, Sonny, and I confused the casino's voluntary decision to generate a SAR at a certain dollar amount with an IRS requirement for that specific amount. It is interesting that failure to provide an ID automatically generates a SAR; I wonder which weighs heavier, the casino's knowing who you are or the IRS getting your picture filed with a SAR? I don't see how a SAR can hurt you, unless it might lead to an IRS audit if they ever do fit the picture to your real identity. Anyone know?

 

[pit15]

21forme, that's idiotic. First off, if you're clean, refusing ID is one of the fastest ways to bring heat onto yourself.

If you been made, and it sounds like you knew you got made, why the hell did you go to the cage? Your situation should've been avoided altogether.

It's fairly routine to ask for a player card or ID with a big cashout. Either don't go over the threshold where it's asked, or present them what they ask for, and if you're hot then don't go to the cage.

 

[21forme]

Sprry, pit15, I disagree.

Did I think I got made? Not necessarily. I simply had a big win in a short period of time. I was waiting for a loss to cut my bet as the count dropped, but I never had the loss (isn't it fun when that happens? )

Did I care if refusing ID got me made? No. I wouldn't be back in town for a few months and by then I'd just be another face in the crowd. If I did give my ID, then I might really have problems in the future, since there now would be a paper trail that could truly ID me.

The only thing I might have done differently, in retrospect, is not go back there 2 days later on a different shift, but again, so what? They told me "no more BJ" and still don't have my name and I've been back there a dozen times since then without a problem.

I would have presented ID if required by law, but not simply for their convenience. I've burned through enough IDs over the years in AC that I don't want to make it easy for them

 

[bigplayer]

I try to be, but you have to fight fire with fire. it happened to me at Mirage a few years ago.

Had a very nice + variance session and went to the cage to cash out 3K, made in about 30 minutes. Cage babe talked to supr, then asks for ID. I asked why and she said to make sure I had no markers. I said I didn't have ID with me and pointed to the pit and said "I bought in with cash. Call them. That's where I played. Do I need to contact Gaming?" Little huddle in cage, phone call, chips cashed. Went back 2 days later, different shift, and backed off within 3 minutes of sitting down. Obviously they had my pic handy. Stayed away a few months and no problems since then.

MGM/Mirage, and a lot of other places, use the leverage they have on you at the cage (you want their money not their chips) to get ID from unrated players they have started to suspect are no good. If you play as a refusal you should just leave after your session...don't even color up (or if you do nothing bigger than purple) then hit the door. Come back a few days later and cashout and then play another session.

 

[paddywhack]

MGM/Mirage, and a lot of other places, use the leverage they have on you at the cage (you want their money not their chips) to get ID from unrated players they have started to suspect are no good. If you play as a refusal you should just leave after your session...don't even color up (or if you do nothing bigger than purple) then hit the door. Come back a few days later and cashout and then play another session.

I've found it much easier to never color up larger than purple anywhere, much less hassle. Keep it in black if it's not too many chips.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

From my experience and from what I read in this post and heard from others, Mirage profiles you as a counter but may not back you off that same session. Maybe they are slow to act or something but these stories of coming back and getting banned quickly or being banned quickly at another MGM property are familiar.

 

[21forme]

MGM/Mirage, and a lot of other places, use the leverage they have on you at the cage (you want their money not their chips) to get ID from unrated players they have started to suspect are no good. If you play as a refusal you should just leave after your session...don't even color up (or if you do nothing bigger than purple) then hit the door. Come back a few days later and cashout and then play another session.

Thanks. Good advice.

I always make it a point to ask for purples when the dealer is reaching for the yellow chips.

 

[aslan]

From my experience and from what I read in this post and heard from others, Mirage profiles you as a counter but may not back you off that same session. Maybe they are slow to act or something but these stories of coming back and getting banned quickly or being banned quickly at another MGM property are familiar.

Also, I believe that lady at Aria never forgets a face! They are sharp!

My guess is that they don't have time to ID you as a counter for sure when you hit and run, but that they review the tapes and enter your play in the software to create an air-tight case for management to back you off next trip. If you don't give them ID they have only your picture to go on, but if you come back anytime soon, that may be all they need. I don't doubt that surveillance people have good memories, but when 21forme says he comes back a few months later and plays without heat, it confirms my suspicion that a good memory only lasts a month or two. Not only that, I believe a different costume, say, from sports jacket and slacks, to jeans, t-shirt and backward baseball cap will fool the best of them in even shorter time spans.

 

[blackjack101]

Well not having had much experience as an AP, I'm not sure on all the heat/lady who remembers faces....
However, I did work at a bank for about two years, CTR's are only required for cash transactions over 10k. Supposedly they're only used for anti-money laundering and all that (thats what they had us tell the customers), but who really knows. TRM's (Transaction review memos) are for cash transactions 2500 or greater. If you get asked for ID and refuse to give one, SAR is reported, or if you ask about the limit of reporting and decide to try to change the transaction as to avoid reporting (i.e. instead of cashing out 30 blacks, only cash out 24 and try to get 6 back) for obvious reasons, SAR is reported.....I'm not sure if TRM's are done in Casinos, it might be a coincidence that 2500 is the lucky number, idk....but the other stuff is legit info straight from a financial institution