Does this effect the"flow of the cards"

[shadroch]

Before you give the old fallback answer that nothing anyone does effects your play,think about this.

Say you have two people playing at a table,they play every hand.
Two others are standing there wonging.When the count justifys it,the two standdees jump in and play two hands each.
So when the count is neutral or negative,the sittiers are absorbing all the cards,but when the count is positive,they are being denied 2/3s of the cards.
Wouldn't this effect both the sitters EV,and have a negative effect on their game?
Something everyone claims is impossible?

 

[supercoolmancool]

I don't think they are actually being denied 2/3 of the good cards.

 

[shadroch]

Why not?
The wongers are playing 2/3s of the hands,so they should get 2/3s of the good cards.Once the count goes down,the sitters get 100% of the cards until the others wong back in.

 

[sagefr0g]

Before you give the old fallback answer that nothing anyone does effects your play,think about this.

Say you have two people playing at a table,they play every hand.
Two others are standing there wonging.When the count justifys it,the two standdees jump in and play two hands each.
So when the count is neutral or negative,the sittiers are absorbing all the cards,but when the count is positive,they are being denied 2/3s of the cards.
Wouldn't this effect both the sitters EV,and have a negative effect on their game?
Something everyone claims is impossible?

it may indeed. see link below:
(Dead link: http://www.hitorstand.net/forum/showthread.php?p=25584#post25584)

 

[supercoolmancool]

Maybe. I can see where you guys are coming from. Like it could have the "shuffle up" effect. Like if they spread to so many hands that that would be the last round of the shoe. So in effect you would play all negative counts and one positive count per shoe. But I don't know. I would think that in an infinate shoe there would be no change in EV, so that is why I still don't think there would be a change in EV, maybe.

 

[shadroch]

it may indeed. see link below:
(Dead link: http://www.hitorstand.net/forum/showthread.php?p=25584#post25584)

Reading that post while browsing that forum is what got me to post my question.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Before you give the old fallback answer that nothing anyone does effects your play,think about this.

Say you have two people playing at a table,they play every hand.
Two others are standing there wonging.When the count justifys it,the two standdees jump in and play two hands each.
So when the count is neutral or negative,the sittiers are absorbing all the cards,but when the count is positive,they are being denied 2/3s of the cards.
Wouldn't this effect both the sitters EV,and have a negative effect on their game?
Something everyone claims is impossible?

It sure does. And in fact if you do this to card counters, they will let you know about it.

The effect is reversed if players get up and leave when the count gets good. This is why I try to avoid sitting down at an empty table in my Wongout game. I'll end up playing a few hands at negative EV and if the count gets good, now I'm elbow-to-elbow. If the count gets bad it doesn't matter because I'll be up and gone anyway. As an AC player where the crowds are inescapable this is something you have to keep in mind.

 

[mdlbj]

If there are only 5 spots being played, in this case, I would spread to two hands .

 

[jimpenn]

A month ago I was playing Don Barten's Majestic Star in IN. heads up in a six deck game. Two decks into shoe the count went sky high and immediately two additional players joined table. No doubt in my mind they limited the number of positive hands I could have received prior to shoe ending by eating up cards during positive count. If they would not have entered shoe I may been able to play at least 6 additional hands with a positive count. As soon as shoe went neg. they left. I also wong and common sense tells me a "play all" shoe player gets screwed when wongers join table in high counts.

I also believe they use shills at the Majestic in IN. I was playing at one table and a young guy broke in for $2,000 and was betting two hands @$100 each. During one hand he put a $50 tip out for the dealer and lost. The dealer then put the $50 in the tray. I asked him why he didn't put the $50 in the tip container and he just said he'll do it later. Bull...

The problem in IN hurting good games is that the State tax is too high. Within the next five years the Indian Casino's will have the majority of action because of tax situation states are laying on casinos. 8D games, H17 are going to be the only available games. Outside of Vegas it's hard to find a good 6D game with the exception of the Borgata in AC. with min entry.

 

[Brutus]

I asked him why he didn't put the $50 in the tip container and he just said he'll do it later. Bull...

why bother with a place like that?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...

The problem in IN hurting good games is that the State tax is too high. Within the next five years the Indian Casino's will have the majority of action because of tax situation states are laying on casinos. 8D games, H17 are going to be the only available games. Outside of Vegas it's hard to find a good 6D game with the exception of the Borgata in AC. with min entry.

I wouldn't say that. Borgata sucks compared to any shoe game with surrender, anywhere. In fact at the end of this year I will be traveling to an undisclosed location to take advantage of a couple of LS shoe games with reported good pen.

 

[EasyRhino]

During one hand he put a $50 tip out for the dealer and lost. The dealer then put the $50 in the tray. I asked him why he didn't put the $50 in the tip container and he just said he'll do it later.

Wait, I'm used to dealer tips being lost to the house when the hand loses.

So... huh?

 

[ihate17]

Good example, poor terminology

Shadroch

What you are describing actually does hurt the players who are playing all overall because they get all the cards when the stack favors the house but fewer of the cards when the stack favors the players. It is the reason that many counters will try to run off players from a table if the count gets juicy, they want to share with as few as possible.
My disagreement is that it still has nothing to do with the so called mythical, all powerful, sacred, "flow." You are just sharing bad cards with few people and good cards with many.

ihate17

 

[shadroch]

IH17,
I know there is no "sacred flow of the cards",I used the term firmly tongue in cheek.
But my point was that in this case,at least,the play of others can have a direct effect on your results.Something that most people here say is impossible.

 

[Preston]

The problem in IN hurting good games is that the State tax is too high. Within the next five years the Indian Casino's will have the majority of action because of tax situation states are laying on casinos. 8D games, H17 are going to be the only available games. Outside of Vegas it's hard to find a good 6D game with the exception of the Borgata in AC. with min entry.

Good 6D games I have found in Indiana:

Blue Chip Casino (Michigan City)
Argosy (Lawrenceburg)

 

[ihate17]

Generally it is called card eating

IH17,
I know there is no "sacred flow of the cards",I used the term firmly tongue in cheek.
But my point was that in this case,at least,the play of others can have a direct effect on your results.Something that most people here say is impossible.

In the negative count you invite new players to the table to eat cards.
In the positive count you hope, plot and get players to leave the table to prevent card eating.

Take it a little further: In a positive count a ploppy on the table takes a hit when he should not- more than likely it will be a high card which when removed hurts your count or expectations, but less likely it could also be one of the remaining small cards.
In the same count, the same guy does not hit when he should-then the opposite is true. The effect is extremely small but it is there.

ihate17