Emotions and Bankroll Management

[blackjack avenger]

Some of us have probably read how overbetting or betting a large fraction of kelly can be an emotional rollercoaster, that the swings can be gut wrenching.

There is also this to consider:
Ever have your heart race when you place those max bets and then perhaps add a spl double on top of that?

Well, what you are experiencing is the "fight or flight response" Your heart is racing beacuse you are worried/scared and are getting an adrenaline rush. One's body is getting them ready to either run or fight. This is a good thing because it will enable you to exhibit maximal muscle effort. A mother can lift a car off her child because of this. However, you pay a price in cognitive abilities. One's focus narrows to what is directly in front of them so they can deal with it. This is not a good thing when you have so much money on the line. One needs to be able to remember indices, notice the pit reaction etc. One may miss other opportunites because their focus has narrowed to what is directly in front of them. There is also the thought that repeated flight or fight responses without the ability to burn off the energy physically may result in negative health effects.

This rush of the big gamble is also what leads to addiction.

So, it would appear as a player we do not want the "flight or fight response" to kick in. How do we avoid this? We do it by betting conservatively, being confident in one's abilities through practice and experience through playing.
:joker::whip:

 

[kewljason]

This rush of the big gamble is also what leads to addiction.

So, it would appear as a player we do not want the "flight or fight response" to kick in. How do we avoid this? We do it by betting conservatively, being confident in one's abilities through practice and experience through playing.
:joker::whip:

Betting fractional kelly, or conservative, as you say does eliminate that instataneous emotional adrenaline rush or anxiety, because even with splits and/or double downs, you never have enough money on the table that that one single hand seems so important. I would venture to say that if you do have that kind of rush from such a single hand, that you are overbetting. Not necessarily overbetting your bankroll, but overbetting your emotional comfort level.

That's why I never understood when players post in the 'stories segment' for example about a trip and speak about a hand where they had max bet out and split and doubled and then the players next to them took the dealers bust card causing them to lose 4 or 5 max bets. They talk about a hand like that as if it was some kind of pivot point, when it is really the type of thing that happens all the time. It is just magnified a bit with a larger wager on the table. But if it is to the point that you are still talking about it hours or days afterwards, then you are probably overbetting your comfort level.

I am to the point now, where I don't experience these instantaneous anxieties, from a single hand or even single session of play, which I think is a good thing. But, I still have not conquered the longer term emotions and anxieties that come with a prolonged period of losing. It is not something one really wants to work on, lol, but I remember reading somewhere, either one of my many books or perhaps even this site where someone said, "you can't hope to be a longterm winner without first learning how to lose". I apologize for not giving credit to who ever said it. I didn't think too much of it when I initially heard or read it, but now believe truer words could not be spoken. I am sure some will disagree. :laugh:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Initial Investment

At some point if fortunate (with proper application of the TC Theorem :laugh you never dip back below your initial investment, any downswing is money won. One could perhaps take some solace in this. Also, the losses become smaller in relation to your total investment.
:joker::whip:

 

[SleightOfHand]

Betting fractional kelly, or conservative, as you say does eliminate that instataneous emotional adrenaline rush or anxiety, because even with splits and/or double downs, you never have enough money on the table that that one single hand seems so important. I would venture to say that if you do have that kind of rush from such a single hand, that you are overbetting. Not necessarily overbetting your bankroll, but overbetting your emotional comfort level.

That's why I never understood when players post in the 'stories segment' for example about a trip and speak about a hand where they had max bet out and split and doubled and then the players next to them took the dealers bust card causing them to lose 4 or 5 max bets. They talk about a hand like that as if it was some kind of pivot point, when it is really the type of thing that happens all the time. It is just magnified a bit with a larger wager on the table. But if it is to the point that you are still talking about it hours or days afterwards, then you are probably overbetting your comfort level.

I am to the point now, where I don't experience these instantaneous anxieties, from a single hand or even single session of play, which I think is a good thing. But, I still have not conquered the longer term emotions and anxieties that come with a prolonged period of losing. It is not something one really wants to work on, lol, but I remember reading somewhere, either one of my many books or perhaps even this site where someone said, "you can't hope to be a longterm winner without first learning how to lose". I apologize for not giving credit to who ever said it. I didn't think too much of it when I initially heard or read it, but now believe truer words could not be spoken. I am sure some will disagree. :laugh:

I am the same way when it comes to short term and long term losses. I have never been uncomfortable making and losing max-bet split-double hands, but when it comes to prolonged losses, I am still discouraged.

I have never been a "feelings" kind of person where I do something because it "feels" right. Knowing that the math backs my decisions at the table, I feel confident that what I am doing is right and that the other options will only lead to further losses. This train of thought has also kept me from making camo plays, as I hate the thought of just giving away money when I can just as easily keep it.

At some point if fortunate (with proper application of the TC Theorem :laugh you never dip back below your initial investment, any downswing is money won. One could perhaps take some solace in this. Also, the losses become smaller in relation to your total investment.
:joker::whip:

As for this... I have to disagree. Lets say you start with a 10k BR and are able to pump it up to 50k. A 15k loss is pretty depressing no matter how you look at it

 

[blackjack avenger]

Playing With House Money

I am the same way when it comes to short term and long term losses. I have never been uncomfortable making and losing max-bet split-double hands, but when it comes to prolonged losses, I am still discouraged.

I have never been a "feelings" kind of person where I do something because it "feels" right. Knowing that the math backs my decisions at the table, I feel confident that what I am doing is right and that the other options will only lead to further losses. This train of thought has also kept me from making camo plays, as I hate the thought of just giving away money when I can just as easily keep it.

As for this... I have to disagree. Lets say you start with a 10k BR and are able to pump it up to 50k. A 15k loss is pretty depressing no matter how you look at it

you have a bank of 10g
you lose 2g

or

you have a bank of 10g
win 5g
then lose 3g

I prefer the second scenario even though you lost more money on the variance because you lost money you have won.
:joker::whip:

 

[SleightOfHand]

you have a bank of 10g
you lose 2g

or

you have a bank of 10g
win 5g
then lose 3g

I prefer the second scenario even though you lost more money on the variance because you lost money you have won.
:joker::whip:

Your first option ends you with 8k and the second option ends you with 12k. Of course the second option is better! I'm assuming thats a typo though and you were trying to give the "playing with house money" example with the same result in the end.

However, that is a fallacy, as it is NOT house money, it is YOUR money. We worked for it, why are we feeling better about losing money we worked for than money we already had? Both of the moneys are still green, right? Would you feel better if you lost money you made working at a full-time job than if you lost money that you had saved in the bank? After all, its not your money, its the company's money you lost.

 

[aslan]

Speaking of gambling emotion, I had my first real experience of midi-baccarat this week. I was steaming a bit from a loss, and decided to try my luck. :whip: I remarked to my partner at how the other player was bending the cards. He said, "That's all right. They throw away the cards after the shoe is dealt."

"So," I asked, "Why do they bend the cards up as they slowly sweat them in such a way that they can hardly see the denominations."

He said, "They are trying to get a rush from the excitement of winning or losing as they slowly sweat the cards."

Me, I was getting the cards from the dealer and just flipping them over. I did not want to feel any excitement over the outcome. I just wanted to see if I would get lucky. I didn't.

They probably realized I was new to the game, as if they had any advantage by all the charts they were keeping. They started off betting the way I bet. Then as I began losing, they switched to the other side, I suppose figuring I was destined to lose so they would bet the other side and take my money. They were right. :laugh:

 

[elkobar]

Emotional control.

Hi,
to all you emotional players, I have mentioned this before, there are 2 very good books on the subject of emotional control, required for mainly stock market trading, but also very applicable for gambling;
Trading in the zone, and The disciplined trader, by mark douglas. both of these books discribe why you get nervous, and how to control it, very good..
Basically it is because the reaction to the hand that you are playing, is being cause by an event that happened to you previously, and the mind remembers it, and reacts in response to this memory, and if the event occurs many times then this reinforces the memory and creates a more pronounced reaction, eg, depression, or doubt, etc.
So to counter this reaction you must learn to play each hand as a seperate event, and not connected to the last hand, and each session has nothing to do with the last one, treat each and every hand and session as being the only one you ever played, and this will help you to be focused, and emotionally level..
Practise will make this a part of your play, and you will be able to switch off;
Elkobar..

 

[Alvaro]

Hi,
to all you emotional players, I have mentioned this before, there are 2 very good books on the subject of emotional control, required for mainly stock market trading, but also very applicable for gambling..

what are these books?

 

[aslan]

Funny thing about emotions and gambling. I used to have an act that would pretend to get extremely upset when I was betting max bet. The trouble is, those situations are so charged, that this is one case where you might actually become what you are pretending (and if there's anything you don't want, it's impaired logic in critical situations, such as, over-betting your bankroll). I no longer "act" emotionally upset, but I fear that remaining calm and cool is a counter give away; so, I try to appear like a well off player who is betting below his means. This act is sometimes betrayed by my face turning red, which it does occasionally, and which may make me resort to laughing my bad fortune away.

I also still get "friendly" pit people offering me sympathy for my bad luck (maybe not buying my act that I can afford to lose), and looks of hope for me to turn my luck around. Nothing is more pleasing than when "I do" turn it around and win, with pit people happy for me to be carrying away of bit of their master's money. That is the consummate good time for me at the tables.

 

[blackjack avenger]

I Want All the Money

Your first option ends you with 8k and the second option ends you with 12k. Of course the second option is better! I'm assuming thats a typo though and you were trying to give the "playing with house money" example with the same result in the end.

However, that is a fallacy, as it is NOT house money, it is YOUR money. We worked for it, why are we feeling better about losing money we worked for than money we already had? Both of the moneys are still green, right? Would you feel better if you lost money you made working at a full-time job than if you lost money that you had saved in the bank? After all, its not your money, its the company's money you lost.

No, I meant what I said. I did not mention how in the example with losing 3g a player may feel at that moment his luck is worse then the player who lost
2g which as you point out is not the case.

On your second point, I do agree with you, but the term house money does mean something to some people. Also, if their initial bank was earned through real sweat and tears vs perhaps some fast bj variance they may in fact get weepy over losing initial investment.

I do belilve the term initial investment does exist that there can be a psycholgoical difference between initial investment and house money. If you never get into your initial investment then one can argue you are never truly down. One is just up less.

None of this specualtion should affect how one plays. All play is continuous and stop losses in mid shoe when positve is bad.
:joker::whip:

 

[pooptarts92]

Just do what me and my counter-buddies do when we play together; when doubling on a hard total (like 10 or 11) pound the table a bit and call out for a deuce or a 5. If you get a measly small card like you "asked" for, start cheering. If you also lose the hand, hi-5 eachother and celebrate. When you get a good juicy big card and win the hand, say "ay ya" and act like you hate winning.
It's hilarious the way the dealers/players perceive you when you do this. Also call out things like "Come on ace!" when the dealer has a 9 and you're sitting with 19. Pretend like you hate to win. Then whatever happens won't matter at all.

 

[elkobar]

emotions

what are these books?

Hi Alvaro,
the 2 books that are most applicable to controling emotions and understanding why you get caught in the mind game are;
The Disciplined Trader. isbn.0-13-215757-8
Trading in the Zone. isbn.0-7352-0144-7
Both by Mark Douglas,
Learning Basic Strategy, and Card Counting, is only part of the game play, when you learn to control your nerves and emotions, you have the complete set.
I never play Blackjack for fun; making money is the name of the game, and it is a serious business, so I need all the control over the game that I can get, and without the inference of the emotions I can focus on the play..
Elkobar.