I recently got off of a cruise where I started with 40 dollars, left with 106 from spanish 21. Around january I started teaching myself the basic strategy for blackjack (game on my kindle). The reason I played spanish 21, there called ultimate fun 21, is that it was the only 21 game with a shoe. I tried learning to count cards but struggled with it, hi lo. Once we got on the ship i realized that I knew it, with about a half hour of practice. It was obvious i was counting but because I was only betting the minimum of 6 dollars they probably didn't care. I didnt know all the differences except that there were no queens so i just waited until the true count was really high to play. I was wondering what card counting strategy Matt21 used and what the people on here generally use, or think is the "best". I am leaning towards learning zen count, but have read the most recent version of blackbelt in blackjack is not as good for learning it for some reason. I am only 18 so my only option gambling wise was to play on the cruiseship.
First Time Gambling
- Thread starter Aender
- Start date
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Aender,
Firstly, what Cruise Line were you on ?
Spanish21 has no TENS, but all Face Cards are present.
In Span21 your blackjacks are paid instantly - no pushes.
You can double on any number of cards and can surrender, including after doubling.
There are also an array of bonuses; and generally a side-bet called "Match the Dealer"
Ordinary card counting and ordinary Basic Strategy will NOT assist you in that
game, IF it was Spanish21 which may or may not have been.
Firstly, what Cruise Line were you on ?
Spanish21 has no TENS, but all Face Cards are present.
In Span21 your blackjacks are paid instantly - no pushes.
You can double on any number of cards and can surrender, including after doubling.
There are also an array of bonuses; and generally a side-bet called "Match the Dealer"
Ordinary card counting and ordinary Basic Strategy will NOT assist you in that
game, IF it was Spanish21 which may or may not have been.
I was on the carnival cruise line
I did not struggle with Hi Lo. As soon as I went to use it in real life I realized that I new it, which surprised me because I had little practise. It was spanish 21, remembered enough of the rules to . And card counting with Hi lo is helpful for spanish 21 if you modify it (dont count the 2's, but didn't know that until afterwards). I modified when I could play by just waiting until the count was much higher then what I would have waited for in normal blackjack.
Even though it is a different game blackjack bs is similar enough i was able to use it effectively with wonging and just waiting until the true count is 3+
I did not struggle with Hi Lo. As soon as I went to use it in real life I realized that I new it, which surprised me because I had little practise. It was spanish 21, remembered enough of the rules to . And card counting with Hi lo is helpful for spanish 21 if you modify it (dont count the 2's, but didn't know that until afterwards). I modified when I could play by just waiting until the count was much higher then what I would have waited for in normal blackjack.
Even though it is a different game blackjack bs is similar enough i was able to use it effectively with wonging and just waiting until the true count is 3+
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Aender,
Apparently your lack the insight to know that you have "no clue" as
to the patent absurdity of what you are saying about Spanish21.
You are just 18 years old. I have been a Professional Player since before you existed.
Part of growing up is the task of understanding that you are ignorant and
that you will do well to glean knowledge from your (experienced) elders.
Develop humility, respect, and an appreciation, for those who will teach you.
Apparently your lack the insight to know that you have "no clue" as
to the patent absurdity of what you are saying about Spanish21.
You are just 18 years old. I have been a Professional Player since before you existed.
Part of growing up is the task of understanding that you are ignorant and
that you will do well to glean knowledge from your (experienced) elders.
Develop humility, respect, and an appreciation, for those who will teach you.
Wow, I was not tryin to offend you or anything, sorry (from reading the last sentence it seems like i am trying to put sarcasm but i am being sincere). I can be arrogant sometimes but I try not to. I would not have posted on here unless I wanted to learn something. I wanted to put my experience and learn from people that have played blackjack much more than me.
what I said about spanish 21- I read somewhere that if you modified hi lo count like I had said you could put it to use with spanish 21 IF you learned the basic strategy for that. I didn't know this until after I played it. I adjusted for how many queens should have been in the deck then I calculated true count, knowing the odds were in the houses favor cause of less 10's so I waited until the true count was fairly high, after i adjusted for lack of 10's.
So are you saying that just breaking even from how I played was just luck? since I was just going off of bj basic strategy.
what I said about spanish 21- I read somewhere that if you modified hi lo count like I had said you could put it to use with spanish 21 IF you learned the basic strategy for that. I didn't know this until after I played it. I adjusted for how many queens should have been in the deck then I calculated true count, knowing the odds were in the houses favor cause of less 10's so I waited until the true count was fairly high, after i adjusted for lack of 10's.
So are you saying that just breaking even from how I played was just luck? since I was just going off of bj basic strategy.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
No matter what happened in your case;
including possibly losing almost all of your hands or possibly winning
almost all of your hands — the result is predominantly LUCK.
The sample size is insignificantly small.
Skill hardly enters into the equation when you have played so little.
That is reflected in "The Law of Large Numbers."
Using the wrong Basic Strategy and a seriously flawed modified Hi-Lo
count without even near-optimal bet-sizing, you were unwittingly struggling
against a monstrous house Advantage that probably was about 5%.
IF you had played the game in the fashion that you described ...
Your chances of being ahead (any amount) after a goodly
amount of time would approach ZERO rather quickly.
Your chance of losing ALL of your money will also approach absolute
certainty — (100%) — if play is extended sufficiently.
Please tell us how long you played for and/or how many hands you played.
I saw in the tv in the room and from hearing 2 dealers explain all the side rules I looked it up after I got home. According to Spanish 21 strategy with the cruiseships rules they had a .7 advantage IF I was using spanish 21 strategy which I was not.
I don't know how many hands I played. I played some blackjack, which was automatic shuffler, and came out about even. I am guessing I played about 20 hands there. On spanish 21 i think i played about 40 to 50. But on both of those i am just guessing, I spent MUCH more time watching then playing.
One time the deck penetration was pretty good, about 75% (8 deck shoe), and I had been watching the whole shoe. But I had a count of 12, towards the end of the shoe so it should have been between 20-24 cause of the queens missing. So i whispered to a guy that i played with before who was sitting at the table that I bet there would be a lot of low cards next round, 7 of the 9 cards face up were low.
I don't know how many hands I played. I played some blackjack, which was automatic shuffler, and came out about even. I am guessing I played about 20 hands there. On spanish 21 i think i played about 40 to 50. But on both of those i am just guessing, I spent MUCH more time watching then playing.
One time the deck penetration was pretty good, about 75% (8 deck shoe), and I had been watching the whole shoe. But I had a count of 12, towards the end of the shoe so it should have been between 20-24 cause of the queens missing. So i whispered to a guy that i played with before who was sitting at the table that I bet there would be a lot of low cards next round, 7 of the 9 cards face up were low.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Yikes ! With that House Edge the game was probably H17 without re-double — never offered with 8 decks stateside.
So … if playing with the complex Span21 Basic Strategy, you are playing a games that is worse than what you are seeing on any BJ table back home.
The Basic Strategy for this game is RADICALLy different than it is for blackjack.
You probably played ⅓ of all your hands incorrectly.
e.g. You HIT all 12's, 13's, and 14 vs. 2 and 3.
You surrender HARD 17 vs. a dealer Ace (the only Basic Strategy surrender in this game)
You do not split 4's. You have a very reduced set of SOFT doubles, etc. etc. etc.
You probably played ⅓ of all your hands incorrectly.
GO TO:
http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21
~ and ~
http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/spanish21.html
Then report back here.
So … if playing with the complex Span21 Basic Strategy, you are playing a games that is worse than what you are seeing on any BJ table back home.
The Basic Strategy for this game is RADICALLy different than it is for blackjack.
You probably played ⅓ of all your hands incorrectly.
e.g. You HIT all 12's, 13's, and 14 vs. 2 and 3.
You surrender HARD 17 vs. a dealer Ace (the only Basic Strategy surrender in this game)
You do not split 4's. You have a very reduced set of SOFT doubles, etc. etc. etc.
You probably played ⅓ of all your hands incorrectly.
GO TO:
http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21
~ and ~
http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/spanish21.html
Then report back here.
that is the site that I found it was spanish 21 a few days ago. What you said was true, I just went with basic strategy. I was fine with that though because of as you said my messed up modification of the Hi Lo count. After I adjusted for how there were no queens then I found the true count, I would then only play if the count was high, higher than I would have waited if I was playing regular blackjack.
I (felt) fine because of my messed up modification of Hi Lo, i was saying that I thought I was at the time, and that I know i wasn't now.
I just realized my original question never got answered. I said I was using the Hi Lo count but wanted to go to a level 2 counting system. I dont know if i should try zen, unbalanced zen 2, mentor, or some other. I was leaning towards zen count, but I read that in the latest edition of blackbelt in blackjack that the way to calculate the true count, or true edge is not as good as it used to be.
I just realized my original question never got answered. I said I was using the Hi Lo count but wanted to go to a level 2 counting system. I dont know if i should try zen, unbalanced zen 2, mentor, or some other. I was leaning towards zen count, but I read that in the latest edition of blackbelt in blackjack that the way to calculate the true count, or true edge is not as good as it used to be.
I am not trying to be pig headed even though I now I do want to argue with you, im not going to. During the cruise I felt like i knew What I was doing. After what you guys said in both of the previous posts I thought I was agreeing with you that you were right, I didnt know what I was doing. But at the time I thought I had, that was all i was trying to say.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Aender … A mature posting would be something along the lines of …
"I obviously am a complete rookie and know extremely little about blackjack and virtually
nothing about Spanish21. While very inexperienced, I played a little bit on a cruise ship,
and was lucky enough to return to shore without my wallet being emptied. I actually
guessed at how to play a game correctly. My assumptions were wrong. I sure hope that
I can learn what needs to be learned. Maybe I can "learn by osmosis" since I seem to
be thoroughly incapable of formulating meaningful questions."
The western intellectual tradition began thousands of years ago in ancient Greece.
A smarter-than-average dude named Aristotle taught his students, (Plato included),
that the best way to learn is primarily by ASKING QUESTIONS.
"I obviously am a complete rookie and know extremely little about blackjack and virtually
nothing about Spanish21. While very inexperienced, I played a little bit on a cruise ship,
and was lucky enough to return to shore without my wallet being emptied. I actually
guessed at how to play a game correctly. My assumptions were wrong. I sure hope that
I can learn what needs to be learned. Maybe I can "learn by osmosis" since I seem to
be thoroughly incapable of formulating meaningful questions."
The western intellectual tradition began thousands of years ago in ancient Greece.
A smarter-than-average dude named Aristotle taught his students, (Plato included),
that the best way to learn is primarily by ASKING QUESTIONS.
Gamblor
Well-Known Member
Think your thinking of Socrates Flash, Socrates taught Plato. Don't recall off hand if Plato taught Aristotle.FLASH1296 said:
Maybe Aender is like Wittgenstein, who found the Socratic method tiresome and silly, because what he was doing is asking questions on vague and nebulous concepts, such as "virtue", "good", etc., :grin:
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Booted out of the sticky I see.
There are people here that use Zen, mentor and halves. They are all good counts although halves is really a level 3 count. To really make a good decision you need to consider what you are going to be playing most of the time. Pitch games favor a system with a high PE while shoe games you need a high BC. Hilo is generally adequate for shoe games. It really suffers in pitch. Any of the three listed above would be good choices. If you are a pitch specialist HIOPT II is your best choice. It is usually done with an ace side count. But even without it in pitch games it is Aone.
There are people here that use Zen, mentor and halves. They are all good counts although halves is really a level 3 count. To really make a good decision you need to consider what you are going to be playing most of the time. Pitch games favor a system with a high PE while shoe games you need a high BC. Hilo is generally adequate for shoe games. It really suffers in pitch. Any of the three listed above would be good choices. If you are a pitch specialist HIOPT II is your best choice. It is usually done with an ace side count. But even without it in pitch games it is Aone.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Thanx muchly for the heads-up.
YIKES ! No fun getting old when your recall gets fuzzy.
Of course it was the "Socratic Method" that I was thinking of !
Thanx for the heads-up.
As far as nebulous Q & A goes YES that was why we refer to him as a "philosopher"
That nebulous crap is how religion is shoved down people's throats.
Using undefinable terms like "spirit" "god" "sin", etc. etc. is the deceptive practice.
YIKES ! No fun getting old when your recall gets fuzzy.
Of course it was the "Socratic Method" that I was thinking of !
Thanx for the heads-up.
As far as nebulous Q & A goes YES that was why we refer to him as a "philosopher"
That nebulous crap is how religion is shoved down people's throats.
Using undefinable terms like "spirit" "god" "sin", etc. etc. is the deceptive practice.