FRID Chips - "Faraday Bags"
- Thread starter jimpenn
- Start date
Automatic Monkey
Banned
It is a device. So is the RFID tag in the chip.Kasi said:
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Possibly.21forme said:
But an absolutely certain way to ensure your RFID chips are shielded is to make a pouch out of mu metal.
Go to http://www.mcmaster.com and enter "mu metal foil" in the search bar and it will show you what you need.
halcyon1234
Well-Known Member
It's based on the idea of a Fraday cage or a Faraday shield:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_Cage
Stuff that's covered in first year physics. Basically, the lining will "absorb" the signal by turning it into a current in the cage itself.
A mesh bag could certainly act as a Faraday cage, if constructed correctly. It needs to be of the right material, and (for lack of a better term) "tuned" to be able to handle the RFID signal.
It would be very easy to test the effectiveness of such a lining in the comfort of your own home. You could drop a cell phone into the bag to see if you lose your signal. Or put a chip in there and use an external reader to try to pick up the signal.
I don't see the bag being mistooked (???) as a device, since it doesn't actually DO anything. It's a passive device. It'd be about as bad as walking around with some tin foil in your pocket. If quizzed on it, I'm sure that ZG could come up with some good reasons to be walking around with signal blocking lining. Or you have one of those "Tap-n'go" credit cards and are paranoid about people "pickpocketing" you card signal. Or you carry your cell, but you're paranoid about being turned "sterile by the radio-ation". Easy.
As to how to abuse the RFID:
Comps work like this: "A player will lose $X based on our estimates. So we'll give him $Y in free stuff, so that Y < X, and our profit is X-Y."
Comp "abuse" works like this: "I know the casino will give me $Y in free stuff. So I'll make them believe that I've lose $Z, where Z > X and my actual loses. Thus, my profit will be $Y - $X."
The casino seems to want to be able to track, with the RFID, how many chips you personally are given, and how many of those chips end up coming back to the casino. Thus, they can tell exactly how much you've lose.
HOWEVER, there are confounding variables. The amount of money you have can have come from other casinos, other sessions, other players, etc. So, instead, they'll probably want to keep track of just the chips you put on the table, which chips are added to that pile, and which chips from that pile come back to the tray. But that, too, can get hellishly complicated with chips flying all over the place, rolling amongst piles, being made into change, etc.
So instead they might just do this: Amount of chips you plunk down on the table, minus the amount of chips you take away with you.
Or even easier, when you pass over your comp card, when the PB scans it, it "reads" your pile to let him know how much you have put into play. This could help him determine your "play level".
When you stand up to leave, the system might take a snapshot of which chips you are taking away with you (or they'll manually track it during your "color up")
In an IDEAL WORLD (for the casino), they would track every single trip. But such granualar monitoring is way too difficult to keep acurrate. Instead, they'll reserve granular control for large denomination chips leaving the dealer tray. An alert might be thrown up on someone's monitor whenever a $500 leaves the tray, for example (in case someone is pocketing them, mispaying with them, etc). In such a PERFECT IDEAL monitoring system, a Faraday cage wouldn't be useful for anything. If you ratholed, the system would alert that a chip went "dead" or missing, and they'd all point to you. If you snuck a chip OUT of your rathole, it would instantly be registered. You might as well be playing on a computer.
In a REALISTIC world, where large chips are tracked for stealing purposes, hand-to-hand tray in and out transactions aren't monitored, and chip totals are only occasionally polled, a Faraday bag is more useful.
Sit down with $1000 in chips, and get comped for $1000. Then start ratholing away $5 and $25. They will vanish completely, and when you are "polled" again, you have magnified your loss. The PB won't have to be observant at all to tell you've "lost" money. In fact, because the PB have to be less observant about chip totals, they won't be as concerned about you ratholing.
If you are good at palming, keep an extra couple $100 in the palm of your hand. Sit down and get your pile. Keep your hand within polling range. Your stack will be "magnified" by $200. Then rathole them. Your stack will diminish greatly by the time you cash out. If you know the math real well, you can turn a win into a small loss. (If you cash in for $2000, and your EV for the session should be $100-- palmpoll $200 so your stack is $2200. You win $100-- but your final poll is only $2100. You've "lost" $100.)
If you have really, really unobservant PB who will blindly trust "the computer", then buy in for $2000, but rathole a few $500. You will be polled at a $5000 buy in. Any good PB would know the difference between a $2k and a $5k stack. But a bad PB won't. When you cash out your win (let's say it's $3000) make sure to palmpoll your stack up to a believable $4000 (two purples in your hand). The ever-trusting PB will assume you just lost $1000, and will arrange a room, buffet and DVD player for you. =)
So there you go. Know the math of the comps. Palmpoll your stack to magnify your starting stack and to diminish your final stack without EVER ratholing. Adjust your magnification to match your pitboss. Reap the benefits.
(Note: Ideally, you should either keep your palmpoll chips, or trade them away to another player so that when you cash them out, they aren't tied to you)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_Cage
Stuff that's covered in first year physics. Basically, the lining will "absorb" the signal by turning it into a current in the cage itself.
A mesh bag could certainly act as a Faraday cage, if constructed correctly. It needs to be of the right material, and (for lack of a better term) "tuned" to be able to handle the RFID signal.
It would be very easy to test the effectiveness of such a lining in the comfort of your own home. You could drop a cell phone into the bag to see if you lose your signal. Or put a chip in there and use an external reader to try to pick up the signal.
I don't see the bag being mistooked (???) as a device, since it doesn't actually DO anything. It's a passive device. It'd be about as bad as walking around with some tin foil in your pocket. If quizzed on it, I'm sure that ZG could come up with some good reasons to be walking around with signal blocking lining. Or you have one of those "Tap-n'go" credit cards and are paranoid about people "pickpocketing" you card signal. Or you carry your cell, but you're paranoid about being turned "sterile by the radio-ation". Easy.
As to how to abuse the RFID:
Comps work like this: "A player will lose $X based on our estimates. So we'll give him $Y in free stuff, so that Y < X, and our profit is X-Y."
Comp "abuse" works like this: "I know the casino will give me $Y in free stuff. So I'll make them believe that I've lose $Z, where Z > X and my actual loses. Thus, my profit will be $Y - $X."
The casino seems to want to be able to track, with the RFID, how many chips you personally are given, and how many of those chips end up coming back to the casino. Thus, they can tell exactly how much you've lose.
HOWEVER, there are confounding variables. The amount of money you have can have come from other casinos, other sessions, other players, etc. So, instead, they'll probably want to keep track of just the chips you put on the table, which chips are added to that pile, and which chips from that pile come back to the tray. But that, too, can get hellishly complicated with chips flying all over the place, rolling amongst piles, being made into change, etc.
So instead they might just do this: Amount of chips you plunk down on the table, minus the amount of chips you take away with you.
Or even easier, when you pass over your comp card, when the PB scans it, it "reads" your pile to let him know how much you have put into play. This could help him determine your "play level".
When you stand up to leave, the system might take a snapshot of which chips you are taking away with you (or they'll manually track it during your "color up")
In an IDEAL WORLD (for the casino), they would track every single trip. But such granualar monitoring is way too difficult to keep acurrate. Instead, they'll reserve granular control for large denomination chips leaving the dealer tray. An alert might be thrown up on someone's monitor whenever a $500 leaves the tray, for example (in case someone is pocketing them, mispaying with them, etc). In such a PERFECT IDEAL monitoring system, a Faraday cage wouldn't be useful for anything. If you ratholed, the system would alert that a chip went "dead" or missing, and they'd all point to you. If you snuck a chip OUT of your rathole, it would instantly be registered. You might as well be playing on a computer.
In a REALISTIC world, where large chips are tracked for stealing purposes, hand-to-hand tray in and out transactions aren't monitored, and chip totals are only occasionally polled, a Faraday bag is more useful.
Sit down with $1000 in chips, and get comped for $1000. Then start ratholing away $5 and $25. They will vanish completely, and when you are "polled" again, you have magnified your loss. The PB won't have to be observant at all to tell you've "lost" money. In fact, because the PB have to be less observant about chip totals, they won't be as concerned about you ratholing.
If you are good at palming, keep an extra couple $100 in the palm of your hand. Sit down and get your pile. Keep your hand within polling range. Your stack will be "magnified" by $200. Then rathole them. Your stack will diminish greatly by the time you cash out. If you know the math real well, you can turn a win into a small loss. (If you cash in for $2000, and your EV for the session should be $100-- palmpoll $200 so your stack is $2200. You win $100-- but your final poll is only $2100. You've "lost" $100.)
If you have really, really unobservant PB who will blindly trust "the computer", then buy in for $2000, but rathole a few $500. You will be polled at a $5000 buy in. Any good PB would know the difference between a $2k and a $5k stack. But a bad PB won't. When you cash out your win (let's say it's $3000) make sure to palmpoll your stack up to a believable $4000 (two purples in your hand). The ever-trusting PB will assume you just lost $1000, and will arrange a room, buffet and DVD player for you. =)
So there you go. Know the math of the comps. Palmpoll your stack to magnify your starting stack and to diminish your final stack without EVER ratholing. Adjust your magnification to match your pitboss. Reap the benefits.
(Note: Ideally, you should either keep your palmpoll chips, or trade them away to another player so that when you cash them out, they aren't tied to you)
RFID doesn't work that way.
It needs to be in direct contact with the sensor, or at least a few inches at the most. So, you don't need to put them in a Faraday bag. Some of you don't seem to understand the NV device law.
NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as permitted by the commission.
This whole thread is about nothing that is applicable to gambling, its just a bunch of guessing at an impossible situation.
It needs to be in direct contact with the sensor, or at least a few inches at the most. So, you don't need to put them in a Faraday bag. Some of you don't seem to understand the NV device law.
NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as permitted by the commission.
This whole thread is about nothing that is applicable to gambling, its just a bunch of guessing at an impossible situation.
Oops
Instead of copying and pasting the gambling law text, I meant to paste the link instead.
http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/
Instead of copying and pasting the gambling law text, I meant to paste the link instead.
http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/
You could quite possibly be right. I guess my vague idea was the RFID chips could send a signal out as far as several feet so it could be read by whatever the casino has somewhere? Or maybe I guess you're saying each player spot has it's own reading sensor? And that transmits data to somewhere?Paradox said:
Are these the same kind of chips the US gov either has, or is considering, putting into US Passports?
And how do these systems that allegedly can read every card dealt, so the casino knows the count of every deck at any time, work? I thought they also were RFID and the cards themselves could contain the chip since they are like paper-thin and really small?
Automatic Monkey
Banned
The way passive RFID works is the power you get out of it is proportional to the power you put into it. The chip picks up an excitation source, which provides power to the chip and causes it to start transmitting.
To determine what chips are where on the table obviously would have to have exciters by each betting spot at a low enough power where they don't interfere with one another, but RFID can have a range of several feet at least and can detect cheques walking out a door. Controlling employee pilferage will be obviously the first job of the RFID cheques. Players are typically comped proportional to their action not their buy-ins or losses and the RFID will be able to tabulate a player's total action. It will also be able to determine variations in bets characteristic of advantage play unless the AP takes measures to prevent it.
To determine what chips are where on the table obviously would have to have exciters by each betting spot at a low enough power where they don't interfere with one another, but RFID can have a range of several feet at least and can detect cheques walking out a door. Controlling employee pilferage will be obviously the first job of the RFID cheques. Players are typically comped proportional to their action not their buy-ins or losses and the RFID will be able to tabulate a player's total action. It will also be able to determine variations in bets characteristic of advantage play unless the AP takes measures to prevent it.
Right...
a magnet moving near a circuit induces(excites) a current in the
wire of the circuit. In the case of RFID the circuit is a very low
power radio(RF) transmitter that transmits only a unique identifier(ID),
like a cookie on your computer(a few bytes), for each chip.
Being low power, the range is very limited.
This is the way EZ-Pass works for your car, too. But EZ-Pass
makes errors. I've been charged many times as a tractor-trailer
when I really have a small commuter car. RFID is not perfect.
Probably there was a semi-trailer in the adjacent lane, or close
behind me.
Where would a casino put its exciters/receivers? Under tables,
at the cage, at all entrances/exits. Anywhere else? It only
takes a tiny fraction of a second for each chip to report its ID to
the receiver. The receiver is linked to the casino's computer
system.
A mylar/metal lining around your pockets would block low power RF
transmissions.
BJinNJ
a magnet moving near a circuit induces(excites) a current in the
wire of the circuit. In the case of RFID the circuit is a very low
power radio(RF) transmitter that transmits only a unique identifier(ID),
like a cookie on your computer(a few bytes), for each chip.
Being low power, the range is very limited.
This is the way EZ-Pass works for your car, too. But EZ-Pass
makes errors. I've been charged many times as a tractor-trailer
when I really have a small commuter car. RFID is not perfect.
Probably there was a semi-trailer in the adjacent lane, or close
behind me.
Where would a casino put its exciters/receivers? Under tables,
at the cage, at all entrances/exits. Anywhere else? It only
takes a tiny fraction of a second for each chip to report its ID to
the receiver. The receiver is linked to the casino's computer
system.
A mylar/metal lining around your pockets would block low power RF
transmissions.
BJinNJ
Sonny
Well-Known Member
Absolutely! The bag is not used to analyze the strategy for playing or betting, therefore it is not illegal under rule #4. It is not illegal to hide your chips in your palm, pocket, purse, sleeve, shoe, under your napkin, or anywhere else. I maintain that it is not illegal to hide chips in a metal-lined pouch. The pouch does not influence the outcome of the game in any way, nor does it predict the outcomes or analyze the strategy. I agree that the laws are intentionally vague, but this point seems fairly clear.Mr. T said:
-Sonny-
Automatic Monkey
Banned
The worst that could happen if they caught you screwing around with the RFID, is claim that you were trying to defraud the casino out of comps by using some device to make it look like you were giving them more action than you were. If you were just hiding the chips in a metal pouch they'd have a tough case to prove, but if you were doing things like altering chips or interfering with the system's readings in any way during play they might have a claim, especially if they actually gave you the comps on account of it.Sonny said:
None of this would be covered under the cheating statutes, obviously, but it could lead to a civil suit if they comped you enough.
No Civil procedings
Considering today's industry competition a lawsuit would hurt them. They know this. 99% of people visiting casinos today never heard of a bag. Now suing them when your "mugged" in the parking garage by an assailant with a reader I do see civil action.
Considering today's industry competition a lawsuit would hurt them. They know this. 99% of people visiting casinos today never heard of a bag. Now suing them when your "mugged" in the parking garage by an assailant with a reader I do see civil action.