Getting back to one spot after winning and/or loosing?

[smithj]

Hi guys I have a question that hopefuly will be answered by one of you with your experience. I have been reading a lot about playing two spots at the same table, and I think as a general conclussion that we can say that it might be a good idea only if the true count is high. Now, without considering the TC, normally I play one spot and only open two when I lose 3 hands in a row (I do this because I think that if the dealer is getting lucky, I might change that opening two spots; it is just a player idea with no scientific explanation =); after that, I get back to one spot.

Now while the true count is high, I have seen that some players will immediately play two spots (me too but after losing 3 hands in a row as I said). My question is, after that and considering that the TC is still high, should I stay in two spots or get back to one? Some people say that I should stay in two spots if I win both, others that I should stay but lowering my bets if I lose... (just in case, most of the time I play alone with the dealer)

I always have this doubt and I was wondering if someone can give me a light on this. Thanks in advance for your time.

J

 

[ycming]

might be wrong, but i think you should read up on more about card counting and that opening up 3 boxes is load of rubbish sounds like you are more of a gambler than a player with an edge.

As for the 2 box argument. Once the count is TC +2 player have an advantage over the house. So people will bet 150% of their bet spread one 2 boxes to max gain. Obviously the down side is you get to play less rounds at the high count.

I always spread to 2 box once there is an advantage.

Ming

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Playing two spots equalling about 150% of a one-spot bet in high counts decreases your swings but allows you to keep a similar win rate. Betting three spots when the dealer is "lucky" will do nothing because you can't determine when that luck begins or ends. Whether you win or lose a particular hand has no bearing on whether or not you will win or lose the next one.

 

[smithj]

First of all thank you both for your replies but I never mentioned anything about playing 3 "boxes" and yes I already know how to count. What I said was that most of the time I play just one box but then I open 2 after losing 3 consecutive hands (I also use this as sort of camouflage) ...but well, this is not the important part...

...my question was, when the TC is high (let's say +3), after opening 2 boxes... should I get back to 1 box or stay in 2 depending on the results?

J

 

[bj21abc]

Two boxes vs One box

I assume that somewhere in the archives "play one box or two" has been flogged to death as in all BJ boards.

In my opinion this issue is too often analysed only as a heads-up situation.

Some (many?) of us have to play at crowded shoe games and we see a limited number of positive opportunities. No question that it is (camo/heat aside) better to then have 150% of action for the same risk than 100%.
Once you are not alone at the table, then the loss of "playing fewer rounds at +ive true count" is less than the gain of 50% more action.

D.

 

[ycming]

Simple play 2 when the TC is 2+

Ming

 

[FLASH1296]

Switching from one to two spots whenever your situation is advantageous is the quickest possible route to being backed off.

That is absolutely clear to every Pro Player.

 

[bj21abc]

I disagree with this as a sweeping statement. This may have been true in your personal experience, but it depends on the staff where you play.

It's a common table move - ploppies quite often open up another box to change the rythm/flow.

Switching from one to two spots whenever your situation is advantageous is the quickest possible route to being backed off.

That is absolutely clear to every Pro Player.

 

[johndoe]

I agree, you can get away with this with a reasonable act, though I'm far from a full time player.

Sometimes I'll start off on two spots in a new shoe, then drop to one if the count tanks, usually after losing a hand. Then move back to two when appropriate, also after losing a hand!

 

[FLASH1296]

I stand by my statement - as posted.

Just think about this issue a little more.

Pit Critters know squat about BJ.

They rely primarily on wide bet spreads and frequent re-sizing of bets to alert them that someone may be a card counter.

Moreover, the simplest thing for any floor person to do is to watch you switch to 2 spots and correlate that to (even a vague idea of) the True Count.

If you were a floor person, how long would it take for you to figure out that when the table is covered with paint I prefer to play one hand and when the baby cards are flying that is when I move to 2 spots. Hmm ?

In retrospect, I am a "slow learner" so it took me a while to figure out that the vast majority of incidents resulting in my being 86'd from casinos was due to multi-hand play, especially in Nevada.

My compromise on this issue is to always play 2 spots off the top and only move to one spot when needed - without going back to 2 spots until the shuffle. Of course, i also do not bet table minimums off the top.

 

[johndoe]

My compromise on this issue is to always play 2 spots off the top and only move to one spot when needed - without going back to 2 spots until the shuffle. Of course, i also do not bet table minimums off the top.

So you're playing more than table minimum on two spots off the top? Isn't that expensive?

Let's see, say it's 2x50 off the top, that's around $.30 each shoe for just the first pair of hands. Playing 2-3 shoes an hour makes the loss $1/hr or so, not too bad I suppose.

 

[moo321]

So you're playing more than table minimum on two spots off the top? Isn't that expensive?

Let's see, say it's 2x50 off the top, that's around $.30 each shoe for just the first pair of hands. Playing 2-3 shoes an hour makes the loss $1/hr or so, not too bad I suppose.

Cover is always expensive. That's why I don't like it. I might take Flash's advice if i was spreading 1-50.

 

[ycming]

Switching from one to two spots whenever your situation is advantageous is the quickest possible route to being backed off.

That is absolutely clear to every Pro Player.

Have you played in the Uk before?

Ming

 

[FLASH1296]

I have only played:

U.S.A.
Canada
Carribean
Central America

 

[bj21abc]

I agree that Casino staff have little idea of AP.

However, switching to 2 hands is NOT the simplest thing to spot - as you pointed out yourself, it's bet spread !! If I were a floor person, watching you play red for a long time "when the babies are flying" then suddenly black - that's the clearest giveaway.

Unfortunately, I have never been to a store where I was greeted with "Hello sir, we'd just like to let you know that if you frequently spread more than 1-10, or bet more than $200 a spot, we'll be watching you - but bear in mind it'll take us at least 3 shoes of surveillance before we make a decision to back you off. Have a nice day."

Which means we are left with guesswork only. Why are you so sure that your 86s are due to 2H play ? Not possible that they simply noticed your bet spread or up/down sizing (with or without correlating it to the count) ?

D.

I stand by my statement - as posted.
Pit Critters know squat about BJ.

They rely primarily on wide bet spreads and frequent re-sizing of bets to alert them that someone may be a card counter.

Moreover, the simplest thing for any floor person to do is to watch you switch to 2 spots and correlate that to (even a vague idea of) the True Count.

If you were a floor person, how long would it take for you to figure out that when the table is covered with paint I prefer to play one hand and when the baby cards are flying that is when I move to 2 spots. Hmm ?

In retrospect, I am a "slow learner" so it took me a while to figure out that the vast majority of incidents resulting in my being 86'd from casinos was due to multi-hand play, especially in Nevada.

 

[FLASH1296]

Note:

To answer the question, the backoffs and 86'ing's took place after I had made the
egregious error of moving to and from multiple spots in accordance with the true Count.
Ordinary one spot betting drew little attention, irrespective of the stakes.
That is easy enough to understand.

NOTE: A while back, after all of the pit critters learned the 2 hand tip-off, some stores, (e.g. the Station Casinos in NV),
decided to treat spreading from one hand to two hands [in a no mid-shoe entry DD game] AS IF the player was
actually "entering" the game, as opposed to simply adding a hand.
That made their job easier - the job of watching our bet spread that is.

 

[smithj]

OK guys, basically the only one that nearly answered my question was ycming... the rest started to talk about something else , which is also good because that makes the forum interesting with people that like to talk and discuss different topics...

...but well, specifically about my question, ycming said "just play 2 boxes when the TC>=2"... so I assume he (and many of u probably) will die playing two boxes when the TC>=2, right?

Again, I am not a pro and I am pretty sure that many of you have absolutely more experience than me, but since I like to analyze my play after every session looking to improve it... isn't that too risky? What I say is that having the RC on our side doesn't mean (I think) that we will win more if we keep playing 2 boxes.

And there goes my first question again (that maybe was misunderstood)... will it not be better (or smart) to get back to 1 box for example if I just won the 2 boxes both with 20s (4 face cards)? I mean even if the TC is still high after that hand? Let's say TC=4 and I was betting $100 on each box (that makes a $200) and I won both with the 20s (actually I was in this situation yesterday). I decided to get back to one box and lower it a little bit to $75. Why? Because I thought that after seeing 4 face cards on my side the probabilities of having them again on the next hand were less despite of the nice TC. The result was that I won the hand, then I raise the bet to $100 again and won two more. Then I lost one and since I saw just 2 face cards on the last two hands I open two boxes again with the same bet. The results were good and yes of course that doesn't mean that will always be the same, but I would like to hear (if possible) your opinions on my play.

Thanks in advance for your time.

J

 

[ycming]

Where i play i get no heat what so ever.

If the count stay high i keep playing boxes with 150% of my betting value of one hand. So if i was going to bet £100 on a box, i will bet £75 on 2 box at TC of +2. Regardless of what cards came out, as long as the TC is +2 or above.

I also use a 1-8 spread.

Ming

 

[smithj]

ycming thank you for your advice. Actually I read this before starting to play, but I had my doubts at some point of the game. However, after several hours of play, I totally agree with this; it is the right move. But I think that it has to be played with a few basic strategy deviations that I would like to discuss (ask) in another threat.

Thanks again.