Getting my wrist slapped

[bj bob]

I noticed lately thet the last few times I,ve played BJ the dealers have been really finicky about using two hands to hold your hole cards. It reminds me of getting "knuckled" by the good nun in grade school for reaching across the lunch table. Is this a new thing or am I just noticing it now that I have become an AP? Or is it just in Reno? BJ

 

[Sonny]

I see players get in trouble for that all the time. They are usually used to playing shoe games where they don't get to touch the cards. Most dealers are VERY picky about it because they will get in big trouble if a floorman sees it happenning at their table. It is a common rule in every casino that prevents the players from "mucking" with the cards (hiding them in their palm and removing them from the table, or switching in marked cards).

-Sonny-

 

[Vytas]

My wife got spanked a couple times for using two hands. The dealer told us it was a Nevada state gaming regulation,for what thats's worth.
Vytas

 

[Mikeaber]

I noticed lately thet the last few times I,ve played BJ the dealers have been really finicky about using two hands to hold your hole cards. It reminds me of getting "knuckled" by the good nun in grade school for reaching across the lunch table. Is this a new thing or am I just noticing it now that I have become an AP? Or is it just in Reno? BJ

It's nothing to get in a stew over Bob. In fact, as an AP, it might be a good decoy move. It is usually the rank amateurs who use both hands and are cautioned by the dealer.

 

[bj bob]

Yeah I hear you

Mike, It's just that I've noticed this happening more recently. It may be due to playing BJ after Pai Gow. Maybe I'll try to practice playing the Pai Gow hand with one hand. That should be a hoot! I'll just tell the PG dealer that I'm only obeying house rules. The cover angle is a good one. I'll try that for my schtick!

 

[ihate17]

Dealers do not like to have their wrists slapped either

Simply, on hand is the procedure. It should have nothing to do with your AP ability, simply dealers do not like to get scolded.

The other night their was a big to do about something in the pit where I was playing but not at my table. Appears that a card or two was missing from a double deck. This I think is one reason for the just one hand on the cards rule.

ihate17

 

[shadroch]

I got yelled at alot my first trip to Vegas. Then someone suggested I keep my beer in my hand. Hasn't happened since!

 

[Mikeaber]

Simply, on hand is the procedure. It should have nothing to do with your AP ability, simply dealers do not like to get scolded.

Hey! Great to see you "over here" ihate17! If you've got the time, tell us a bit about your background.

Of course, you are right. One hand or two (unless you are mucking) would realy have nothing to do with gaining advantage. But, I have noticed that the people who generally are guilty of using two hands on the cards are those who are new to Blackjack, or at least new to pitch games. Then again, I guess anything that really draws attention to you is probably not a good thing.

 

[ihate17]

Hey! Great to see you "over here" ihate17! If you've got the time, tell us a bit about your background.

Of course, you are right. One hand or two (unless you are mucking) would realy have nothing to do with gaining advantage. But, I have noticed that the people who generally are guilty of using two hands on the cards are those who are new to Blackjack, or at least new to pitch games. Then again, I guess anything that really draws attention to you is probably not a good thing.

Background? Well I have been a cardcounter since before 1980. The middle of three generations of counters, an uncle tought me and I tought a niece. Not a pro, just a heavy duty rec player. Also, I have family on the dark side and never play in their casinos (would not embarrass or cost them a job) but they have given me tons of info over the years on just how things are done in casinos.

Yes, new players are the ones who use two hands and do not know how to scratch for a hit or tuck their cards. The thing is, the pit may be sharp enough to know these are new players but the dealers only know that if they do not tell the player to use one hand, they will land up getting a talking too either on their break or after their shift, so dealers become paranoid about this even when they have no idea of why the rule exists. It is all procedure and procedure is the life of a dealer.

ihate17

 

[Mikeaber]

I've enjoyed our exchanges and look forward to them here, Ihate17.

Well, I guess I "got my wrist slapped" today. Went up to an Indian Casino in northern Kansas and got a surprise! They have a DD game on which they lower the limits to $5 Monday through Thursday and kick them up to $10 Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Rules:
Pitch
Dealer hits soft 17
No mid-shoe entry
Double only on 8,9,10,11...no doubles on soft hands
Resplit Aces (one hit)
Split any pair
Double after split
BJ 3:2

But the crucial factor was that the pen is from 70% to 80%, set by the old notch in the discard tray!

I had played a 6D game that has the standard hit soft-17 rules while waiting on the DD game to open. Did well but not great on that table. I sat out a several hands according to KO exit strategy since you could reenter the shoe. Either just refused to bet or stood back "for a smoke". I used my standard 1-10 spread and did play "some" negative counts...had to, after all, it's KO.

Anyway, I might have drawn some attention while at that little miniscule minimum table but got no indication of it.

But when I went to the DD table, I was mildly surprised when during the fourth "shoe" the dealer was tapped out causing a reshuffle. This happened right after I'd made a 2-unit bet. On the previous three shoes, I had made it to max once and a couple of times to the 3 and 4 unit bets.

Well, it only went two more shoes before the dealer was once again tapped out...again, right after I'd made a 2 unit bet! I was getting a bit frustrated at that point because otherwise, it was going well for me. However, after the 4th time this happened....well, you don't have club me with a baseball bat but it was the first time it had ever happened to me and caught me with my shorts around my ankles. The first two times, I could understand because of the table opening and them trying to get dealer breaks and rotations set. But after the next two times, it was pretty obvious that they were onto me.

I would imagine the others at the table were pretty glad to see me go :laugh:

 

[ScottH]

I've enjoyed our exchanges and look forward to them here, Ihate17.

Well, I guess I "got my wrist slapped" today. Went up to an Indian Casino in northern Kansas and got a surprise! They have a DD game on which they lower the limits to $5 Monday through Thursday and kick them up to $10 Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Rules:
Pitch
Dealer hits soft 17
No mid-shoe entry
Double only on 8,9,10,11...no doubles on soft hands
Resplit Aces (one hit)
Split any pair
Double after split
BJ 3:2

But the crucial factor was that the pen is from 70% to 80%, set by the old notch in the discard tray!

I had played a 6D game that has the standard hit soft-17 rules while waiting on the DD game to open. Did well but not great on that table. I sat out a several hands according to KO exit strategy since you could reenter the shoe. Either just refused to bet or stood back "for a smoke". I used my standard 1-10 spread and did play "some" negative counts...had to, after all, it's KO.

Anyway, I might have drawn some attention while at that little miniscule minimum table but got no indication of it.

But when I went to the DD table, I was mildly surprised when during the fourth "shoe" the dealer was tapped out causing a reshuffle. This happened right after I'd made a 2-unit bet. On the previous three shoes, I had made it to max once and a couple of times to the 3 and 4 unit bets.

Well, it only went two more shoes before the dealer was once again tapped out...again, right after I'd made a 2 unit bet! I was getting a bit frustrated at that point because otherwise, it was going well for me. However, after the 4th time this happened....well, you don't have club me with a baseball bat but it was the first time it had ever happened to me and caught me with my shorts around my ankles. The first two times, I could understand because of the table opening and them trying to get dealer breaks and rotations set. But after the next two times, it was pretty obvious that they were onto me.

I would imagine the others at the table were pretty glad to see me go :laugh:

You were doing all the counting for them! They just waited until you raised your bet to signal to them the players had the advantage! I suppose that's why they never asked you to leave.

 

[Mikeaber]

Stooge

You were doing all the counting for them! They just waited until you raised your bet to signal to them the players had the advantage! I suppose that's why they never asked you to leave.

No doubt Scott. I'm just wondering how they spotted me so quickly! I don't think pulling my shoes off and counting on my toes as well as my fingers could have given me away; do you? I did win a vast majority of the larger bets, but not all of them! And, there was a guy betting from $50 to $200 (table max) sitting at the table, but his bets were all over the place and not corelated with the count. Maybe you're right, they spotted me and weren't afraid of me but did want to cut the losses from that large bettor. He had lost $5,000 yesterday (Sunday) and was trying to get it back. He had come back $2500 by the time I had left. He was a "regular" there apparently.

 

[zengrifter]

No doubt Scott. I'm just wondering how they spotted me so quickly! I don't think pulling my shoes off and counting on my toes as well as my fingers could have given me away; do you? I did win a vast majority of the larger bets, but not all of them! And, there was a guy betting from $50 to $200 (table max) sitting at the table, but his bets were all over the place and not corelated with the count. Maybe you're right, they spotted me and weren't afraid of me but did want to cut the losses from that large bettor. He had lost $5,000 yesterday (Sunday) and was trying to get it back. He had come back $2500 by the time I had left. He was a "regular" there apparently.

They sometimes don't like to bar counters in front of regulars and other big losers. Bad PR. zg

 

[ScottH]

They sometimes don't like to bar counters in front of regulars and other big losers. Bad PR. zg

And keeping him there helped them with their "preferential shuffling" as well.

 

[ihate17]

Other players

Mike, why would you think the other players had any idea that this was the way this casino preferential shuffles or it was aimed at you personally. Most players are oblivious to this.
Also if are saying they are dealing 75% of the cards, that makes this a good double deck game. Many casinos cut the stack in half offering horrid penetration which also happens to be something else a non counter never seems to notice or have any reason too.
I know an Indian Casino in SoCal, with similar rules that also always reshuffles when they change dealers and never changes dealers with a negative count!
Someone is counting that game down, most likely their eye. They have a decent game and perhaps are highly paranoid about it and have made you for a counter. They have found a way to flat bet you without telling you, except it looks strange it they did it for a few shuffles in a row.

ihate17

 

[Mikeaber]

No, I don't think the other two players at the table had any clue that they were suffering bad shuffles because of me. They probably didn't even notice that the dealer changes were taking place far less after I left. I seriously doubt that the other players even suspected anything at all unusual going on other than they were having to wait during the reshuffle and were crying in their coffee about not winning many hands. Neither do I think they knew or cared that this game carried an average 75% pen! They were shoving bets (large one in the case of one of the players) and making for the most part, good basic strategy plays. It was definitely directed at me. No doubt about that. They didn't bring in a new dealer on EVERY shuffle. They didn't need to. The count didn't go positive enough to matter on every shuffle. But, there would be only a couple of reshuffles before it did go favorable and I would bump my bet. Shortly after that, there would be another blue shirt tapping the dealer out to go on break. Interesting. Disappointing for me too because I'd like to have been able to play that table for a while.

 

[ihate17]

You have been made

No, I don't think the other two players at the table had any clue that they were suffering bad shuffles because of me. They probably didn't even notice that the dealer changes were taking place far less after I left. I seriously doubt that the other players even suspected anything at all unusual going on other than they were having to wait during the reshuffle and were crying in their coffee about not winning many hands. Neither do I think they knew or cared that this game carried an average 75% pen! They were shoving bets (large one in the case of one of the players) and making for the most part, good basic strategy plays. It was definitely directed at me. No doubt about that. They didn't bring in a new dealer on EVERY shuffle. They didn't need to. The count didn't go positive enough to matter on every shuffle. But, there would be only a couple of reshuffles before it did go favorable and I would bump my bet. Shortly after that, there would be another blue shirt tapping the dealer out to go on break. Interesting. Disappointing for me too because I'd like to have been able to play that table for a while.

I think in casinos that are not tourist places, that are loaded with regulars, tossing a player for counting is looked at as something that might upset their regulars, so they do not do it. They have flat bet you without telling you or upsetting anyone at their tables and it has been effective. It is a polite way of saying, "we really do not want you here but if you stay you will gain no real advantage in our game."

Find another way of beating them (hole carding) and you might find a registered letter in your mailbox telling you not to bother them any more.

ihate17

 

[Mikeaber]

Well, if they did "make me" (and I'm about 80% sure of it), I can't imagine them being able to mail me anything. I didn't use any ID at the table Monday and it had been at least 6 months since I'd been there. I do know that the Pit Boss recognized me enough to know that I've been there before.

The more I think about it, I do think it was "Them" using me as a Gage to thwart the success of the big money bettor sitting at the table. The serendipitous benefit was that they were in effect "flat betting" me.

I'll go back in another 6 months and see what happens. It's sort of an out of the way place so not one that I'd normally visit frequently.

 

[Mikeaber]

I posted this in another thread and it should have been posted here. I did return to the Indian casino that is mentioned in this thread. It has been almost 2 months since the time of the "shuffling" episode mention. This time, I played at the DD table for at least 2 hours with no hassle. They didn't play games with the shuffling this time and I was spreading most of the time 1:5 but occasionally even higher. Two other player at the table (obviously non-counters) were betting much higher so I wasn't too worried. Unfortunately for me, I got my butt kicked. I lost most of my high count hands this time but would almost pay for the chance to get those kinds of counts again!

I'm still not sure about the "heat" situation. The crew was not the same one that I had a couple of months ago.