got banned at mohawks casino (akwesasne indian reserve) WHY?

[li_ka_shing168]

Hi everyone, I have a little adventure to share here. I got banned at Mohawks casino last Tuesday the 30 June. I usually play at casino of Montreal with a 1-40 spread, 25/unit. At Mohawks I was only using a spread of 1-4 my minimum bet was two hands of 25 and my max bet was two hands of 100$. I only increased when i won my hand. and this time was my second visit. i played on the same table for around 2 and a half hour, made around 1000 us. suddenly 2 manager came with their securities and shouted mister Shing come here a second. they said they think my game is too tough for them. they wanted me to change my chips and leave the casino immediately. at the door they give me a contract to sign to approve i will never come back to the casino again if not i could be arrested. During the playing sessions i was talking a lot in french with my friend, my friend is not a counter. i was cheering a lot. trying to act as much as possible by finally it didn't work after all. I was already getting heat right on the first round of session. I notice there were 1 or even 2 pit boss watching my tables from the first hand i played. I remember one of they pit boss were often on the phone and one were following my how much chips i had. The first time I went to this casino, i remember i was playing from 5$ increasing up to 275$. but after the shoe were finished. i stopped to play completely because my bankroll was ruined. So i wonder if they left a note on the comp card to have an eye on me next time i come to play. Now i will need your advice and your tip to tell me what i did wrong and what should i do next time for my acting. i am going to AC this Sunday til Thursday for the first time. Will Mohawks send my name to the other casino in US because they identified me as a counter? Any replies from you would be helpful. Thanks you in advance to all my fellow counters in the forum whom i give you my entire respect.

 

[WRX]

Hi everyone, I have a little adventure to share here. I got banned at Mohawks casino last Tuesday the 30 June. I usually play at casino of Montreal with a 1-40 spread, 25/unit. At Mohawks I was only using a spread of 1-4 my minimum bet was two hands of 25 and my max bet was two hands of 100$. I only increased when i won my hand. and this time was my second visit. i played on the same table for around 2 and a half hour, made around 1000 us.

That's the biggest part of the answer, right there. You stayed for 2 1/2 hours, and gave them the opportunity to evaluate your play at leisure. It didn't help that you were winning. Other things being equal, the casinos will scrutinize winners more closely than losers. They don't like winners.

suddenly 2 manager came with their securities and shouted mister Shing come here a second. they said they think my game is too tough for them. they wanted me to change my chips and leave the casino immediately. at the door they give me a contract to sign to approve i will never come back to the casino again if not i could be arrested.

PLEASE tell me you didn't sign a thing like that. Actually, on your way to the cage, it would have been best just to make a sharp left turn out the door, if you could have done it without being assaulted. You might even have robbed them of the opportunity to bar you formally. The thing to do in that situation is just to pocket your chips and have a friend cash them later.

You should really think how you'll handle yourself in case of a backoff or barring, long before it happens.

During the playing sessions i was talking a lot in french with my friend, my friend is not a counter. i was cheering a lot. trying to act as much as possible by finally it didn't work after all. I was already getting heat right on the first round of session. I notice there were 1 or even 2 pit boss watching my tables from the first hand i played. I remember one of they pit boss were often on the phone and one were following my how much chips i had.

This is called HEAT. Pay attention to this stuff. You shouldn't necessarily run off at the first sign of heat, but if you're getting it, plus you're engaged in a play that the house can easily analyze, plus you're winning, plus you've stayed way too long, it's asking for trouble.

The first time I went to this casino, i remember i was playing from 5$ increasing up to 275$. but after the shoe were finished. i stopped to play completely because my bankroll was ruined. So i wonder if they left a note on the comp card to have an eye on me next time i come to play.

It's very possible that they flagged you for observation. Especially since you were playing a strong game, and probably stayed too long on that occasion, too! This shows the danger of playing on a card when counting. The casinos are hip to the play, and even if they don't know much else, they know how to spot a counter, given enough time. By playing on a card, it's almost as if you were playing one long session equal to the sum of all your sessions, because surveillance can pick up where they left off last time.

 

[creeping panther]

shing

Hi everyone, I have a little adventure to share here. I got banned at Mohawks casino last Tuesday the 30 June. I usually play at casino of Montreal with a 1-40 spread, 25/unit. At Mohawks I was only using a spread of 1-4 my minimum bet was two hands of 25 and my max bet was two hands of 100$. I only increased when i won my hand. and this time was my second visit. i played on the same table for around 2 and a half hour, made around 1000 us. suddenly 2 manager came with their securities and shouted mister Shing come here a second. they said they think my game is too tough for them. they wanted me to change my chips and leave the casino immediately. at the door they give me a contract to sign to approve i will never come back to the casino again if not i could be arrested. During the playing sessions i was talking a lot in french with my friend, my friend is not a counter. i was cheering a lot. trying to act as much as possible by finally it didn't work after all. I was already getting heat right on the first round of session. I notice there were 1 or even 2 pit boss watching my tables from the first hand i played. I remember one of they pit boss were often on the phone and one were following my how much chips i had. The first time I went to this casino, i remember i was playing from 5$ increasing up to 275$. but after the shoe were finished. i stopped to play completely because my bankroll was ruined. So i wonder if they left a note on the comp card to have an eye on me next time i come to play. Now i will need your advice and your tip to tell me what i did wrong and what should i do next time for my acting. i am going to AC this Sunday til Thursday for the first time. Will Mohawks send my name to the other casino in US because they identified me as a counter? Any replies from you would be helpful. Thanks you in advance to all my fellow counters in the forum whom i give you my entire respect.

A big part may have been speaking in a language other than what the pit understood with another player and then playing a strong game.

The speaking part, that may have been the last straw.

CP

 

[SystemsTrader]

You have given out way too much detailed information on this board.

 

[johndoe]

Spreads of 1-40 or 1-55 are pretty crazy, especially for two hour plus sessions! How is this at all surprising?

 

[li_ka_shing168]

thank you WRX,creeping panther and SystemsTrader for your reply. now i would like to know how long should my sessions be later on in AC? And is there any problem with heat if I use the same betting pattern or can I spread even more in the AC? Can AC have my name if I signed that sheet in Mohawks.

Spreads of 1-40 or 1-55 are pretty crazy, especially for two hour plus sessions! How is this at all surprising?

Well johndoe for your information, Montreal casino is open by the government, and if i am not wrong, there is a law saying that no casino in Canada can bar player or kick them out if they are playing normally. So the only measure they take to counter us (AP) is to make a 50% penetration. Normally I hit and run, after i played big on a table. i don't care if they cut 50% or not i get to another section and start again. There is 4 different section in the casino so there is lots of room to hide and play. But when they decide to call each other and tell every tables to make the half cut penetration i have to go home and sleep then wait for tmw. You might think its good to be able to spread so high but the game is so hard there. H17 8 decks AND penetration is 65% - 75%. Its so hard to play a proper numbers of hands each hour. i am back counting there and i get around 10 hands an hour just like the estimation with CVCX (12 hands an hour) and for my max bet of 40 unit. i might have the opportunity to put once every 100 hands i played. the table have high limit. you can bet up to 1000 on 25$ min table. and to surprise you even more. one of my fellow counter there uses an even bigger spread then me. he can start from a hand of 25 and spread up to 4 hands of 1000$. and in the high roller section. Where the tables are 50min and 2000max NMSE. Another high roller counter use to play alone on the table betting 50 minimum and when the tc raise up to +2. BANG, 4 hands of 2000$ until the shoe doesn't favor him.

 

[Thunder]

I wouldn't worry too much about AC unless you go there a lot. Worse case scenario, they half shoe you or flat bet you. But yeah you're not going to go unnoticed anywhere making 1-40 spreads. Just keep the sessions short and make your merry way.

 

[1357111317]

thank you WRX,creeping panther and SystemsTrader for your reply. now i would like to know how long should my sessions be later on in AC? And is there any problem with heat if I use the same betting pattern or can I spread even more in the AC? Can AC have my name if I signed that sheet in Mohawks.





Well johndoe for your information, Montreal casino is open by the government, and if i am not wrong, there is a law saying that no casino in Canada can bar player or kick them out if they are playing normally. So the only measure they take to counter us (AP) is to make a 50% penetration. Normally I hit and run, after i played big on a table. i don't care if they cut 50% or not i get to another section and start again. There is 4 different section in the casino so there is lots of room to hide and play. But when they decide to call each other and tell every tables to make the half cut penetration i have to go home and sleep then wait for tmw. You might think its good to be able to spread so high but the game is so hard there. H17 8 decks AND penetration is 65% - 75%. Its so hard to play a proper numbers of hands each hour. i am back counting there and i get around 10 hands an hour just like the estimation with CVCX (12 hands an hour) and for my max bet of 40 unit. i might have the opportunity to put once every 100 hands i played. the table have high limit. you can bet up to 1000 on 25$ min table. and to surprise you even more. one of my fellow counter there uses an even bigger spread then me. he can start from a hand of 25 and spread up to 4 hands of 1000$. and in the high roller section. Where the tables are 50min and 2000max NMSE. Another high roller counter use to play alone on the table betting 50 minimum and when the tc raise up to +2. BANG, 4 hands of 2000$ until the shoe doesn't favor him.

Just off the top of my head... That guy would need like a... 500k bankroll to play a game like that..

 

[FLASH1296]

In the U S A if you engage in bizarrely greedy behavior as you describe, you will ALWAYS be barred or trespassed.

In Atlantic City they will certainly limit your bet spread and level to $5 to $50 or "half-shoe" you IF you are playing alone.

"i was playing from 5$ increasing up to 275$. but after the shoe were finished. i stopped to play completely because my bankroll was ruined. So i wonder if they left a note on the comp card to have an eye on me next time"

That was a 55 to 1 spread.
A 12 or 15-1 spread they would tolerate
for an hour or two or even three.
Never underestimate your adversary.
Most, but not all, of them are less than smart.
After you left, surveillance ran a "skills check"
on the videotape; so yes, they were waiting for
you to return.

I was barred from there in late 2008.

Speaking French at the table surely contributed to how you were treated.

 

[SystemsTrader]

Well johndoe for your information, Montreal casino is open by the government, and if i am not wrong, there is a law saying that no casino in Canada can bar player or kick them out if they are playing normally.

That's not true at all. Any casino can kick you out and they don't even need a reason. They simply have the right to trespass you any time.

 

[ihate17]

You got exactly what you asked for

I do not mean to be cruel here but you spread huge, played for 2.5 hours and did this in the face of a couple of pits.
I often spread a huge amount but do it without the heat of a couple of pits in my lap and always leave the casino shortly after those huge bets.

Also, put yourself in the pits situation for a second. You are evaluating this player and think he is playing at an advantage. You call over another pit or your boss to verify your suspicions. While the two of you are watching (giving heat) to this player, he spreads wildly in your face. At this point you must tell him to go.

ihate17

 

[li_ka_shing168]

I do not mean to be cruel here but you spread huge, played for 2.5 hours and did this in the face of a couple of pits.
I often spread a huge amount but do it without the heat of a couple of pits in my lap and always leave the casino shortly after those huge bets.

Also, put yourself in the pits situation for a second. You are evaluating this player and think he is playing at an advantage. You call over another pit or your boss to verify your suspicions. While the two of you are watching (giving heat) to this player, he spreads wildly in your face. At this point you must tell him to go.

ihate17

I only made these huge spread at Montreal casino, like i mentioned i was only spreading from two hands of 25 to two hands of 100, plus i was only raising each time I win the round. if not i stayed the same amount or drop a little bit.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Even though your spread was entirely reasonable, you played an easily detectable game in front of the pit after observing very obvious heat for an extended period of time. When you saw the boss on the phone, it's easy to assume that you were the then the subject of a skills check, and they could have a VERY easy read on your after about 30 minutes of additional play, even with the parlaying scheme. If you see this kind of heat, you should consider leaving soon (especially after the phone call, which most likely means you're now under surveillance from outside of the pit), and certainly if it doesn't let up after a few more minutes of play.

That 1-55 spread in Montreal must be a real kick, though!

 

[callipygian]

got banned at mohawks casino (akwesasne indian reserve) WHY?

Because you don't know the phrase, "you can shear a sheep many times but only slaughter it once."

Limit your session times or play a weaker game in the future.

 

[chichow]

FWIW from previous posts

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=96759#post96759

bankroll is/was 4000 CND?

Also the forum name is from here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Ka-shing

 

[Albee]

Getting booted

At that place.....bumping up your bets in front of them, playing one spot then jumping to two spots.....and winning those hands, sent a HUGE flag to them. Had you been losing, then they have no problem.

But after 2 hrs of your play style and discussions with your friend, they thought it best to boot you.

 

[li_ka_shing168]

FWIW from previous posts

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=96759#post96759

bankroll is/was 4000 CND?

Also the forum name is from here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Ka-shing

yes my bankroll WAS 4000 but it has growing minimum 10 times now, i have been working very hard lately. especialy beeing cheap . and yes that Li Ka-Shing is the richest man in HK. I was born there. If i was him i will probably have enough money to play full table maximum 10000 at reno when tc reachest +2

 

[li_ka_shing168]

thank you for replying. just came back from AC this this friday. result of the trip -500$ but all my rooms, my dinners, and expenses were paid by comps and complimentary coupons. got two nights hotel at waterclub hotel, very good hotel though and one night at trump plaza. manage to win around 3200 at plaza. but got heat after i burned the table with 3 hands of 100$ and i won 5 of then in row with splits doubles it was so perfect. then changed the dealer right after the shoe, and the dealer was dressed like a pit, she was dealing hell hell fast and didnt stop talking to me. i had to switch back to high low to be able to follow. i never went back after that night. went to hilton, tropicana, trump marina... but nothing special happened. and finally at borgata, i was losing slowly and the day before i came back to montreal, from midnight to 5,i drunk myself a bit to hit harder. but the hands didnt pass so finally loss everything. but still a good experience and quite a fun trip. planning to go back soon again