Grosjean case

[Cyrano]

Mayor,

I was reading your board when I noticed the copies of legal documents for the Grosjean (Beyond Counting fame) case. From what I surmised, I guess he is trying to set a precident to stop the Griffin Agency from distributing info, hence "slandering" card counters and prevent illegal back-rooming. There must be dozens of these cases every year. Is there a particular reason why this is of particular interest? Do you think if this case succeeds, that life as a counter will be different?

 

[steve]

what Griffin does

Griffin lists thousands of players as "21 cheats", these players don't actually cheat, of course, but they count cards. Griffin views card counting as "cheating". When Griffin sends a casino information labelling a player as a "cheat" sometimes they include how the person cheats, e.g. marking cards with ink, bending cards, etc., but they don't always indicate how the person cheats, particularly with "21 cheaters". The employees of a casino have almost no leeway in how they implement the policies of the casino they work for, the policy will say "if a player is listed by Griffin as a cheat, they are immediately barred and escorted off premises", the fact that Griffin doesn't say how the player cheats and lumps card counters in with "cheaters" and calls counters "21 cheats" is not taken into account. So, if your name and picture are in the Griffin book then you won't get to play anywhere for very long. Obviously, Griffin's actions are damaging to counters.

Now, if you think that only "high rollers" get into Griffin you are mistaken. It is quite easy for a player to end up in Griffin. Any pit critter, at any time, can call Griffin up and ask for info on you, they will have the eye in the sky get your smiling face on camera and the Griffin agent will be looking at your face and then will try to match you with their database, either against your picture or the information the pit critter has on you, guess what, though? If there is no match and the pit critter told Griffen that they thought you were "cheating", Griffin will add you to their database as a "21 cheat"!! And, since casinos view counting as cheating they won't have to specify how you are "cheating", the Griffin agent knows anyway that you are a counter, but they don't care.

I have worked as a consultant to the casino industry, I am a computer consultant, not a gaming consultant, but I have been in the survellience room working on the computer system when this was going on, so I have seen it with my own eyes.

Also, I was talking to a pit supervisor of a casino in Biloxi trying to find out what level of play I needed to play at to get air fare, lodging, and meals comped 100% and the woman went on and on about how they use face recognition and player information databases to keep out "21 cheats" and "teams". I never quite understood why she went into all of this with me, I asked her though how many players were in these databases, and she said "thousands", probably "tens of thousands".

This is one of the reasons, but not the only reason, that Grosjean is going after Griffin and why this case is so important. Griffin dispenses inaccurate and blatantly false information which makes it so that players cannot pursue what may be their livelihood or at least a favorite pasttime. Most casinos accept anything that Griffin says as the gospel and don't try to validate the information. Also, Griffin obtains this information illegally because you never gave them permission to get your picture and you never gave the casino permission to share your confidential information with Griffin.

Steve

 

[The Mayor]

This case is in regards to two very high-profile advantage players. Grosjean and Russo are very well known, most who are harrassed are more anonymous.

The case is unique in that they were not counting, they was using more advanced methods.

I do not believe there are dozens of such cases per year, I hear about a few each year, and it is very hard to get a lawyer to take such a case. For the most part, there is not enough evidence, in this case there is plenty to go around.

Finally, the damages the plantiff's are seeking have been explicitly not limited by the judge, so good fun lies ahead.

--Mayor

 

[Cyrano]

It sounded like their method was spooking the hole card. But there's more at stake than just money, no? Unless, they can somehow bankrupt Griffin.. ;-)Grosjean is a high-stakes player, but I've never heard of Russo. Is he also published? What's his specialty?

*********
This case is in regards to two very high-profile advantage players. Grosjean and Russo are very well known, most who are harrassed are more anonymous.

The case is unique in that they were not counting, they was using more advanced methods.

I do not believe there are dozens of such cases per year, I hear about a few each year, and it is very hard to get a lawyer to take such a case. For the most part, there is not enough evidence, in this case there is plenty to go around.

Finally, the damages the plantiff's are seeking have been explicitly not limited by the judge, so good fun lies ahead.

--Mayor

 

[Cyrano]

Wow...

Thanks for the detailed posting. It really sheds some light on some of the grey areas. What do you hope will happen if he wins? Get rid of the Griffin book altogether? Since he wasn't counting cards, this case isn't explicitely involving card counters. Do you think the court will make a distinction for all advantage players?

 

[hammer]

superb post Steve...n.m

 

[Buick Riviera]

Superb Post But Not Entirely Accurate

Also, Griffin obtains this information illegally because you never gave them permission to get your picture and you never gave the casino permission to share your confidential information with Griffin.

The above statement simply isn't true. You never need anyone's permission to take their picture and publish it any fashion you wish so long as the subject of the picture is in a place open to the public where there is no expectation of privacy. That's why voyeurism pics are illegal and pics taken inside a casino are not. Anyone who walks in a casino knows that their picture is being taken from the moment they set foot in the place.

Where the legal problem might lie is the labeling of the subject of the picture as a cheat. Even then, it isn't illegal in the sense that anyone goes to jail for slander or libel. It just means that the victim is entitled to some money but only to the extent that is necessary to compensate for the dimished reputation of the victim. Thus those that go in with a tarnished reputation to begin with end up receiving relatively little money.

Finally, as to Grosjean at least, expect the casinos to present a "public figure" defense (remember Faldwell v. Flynt and the movie "Absence of Malice"?). Grosjean is a well known "public figure" in the gaming community and if so deemed by the court, slander or libel can't be found, absent malice.

The defense of absence of malice is a no brainer for the casinos: "We treat everyone this way not just Grosjean. We harbor no malice towards him."

These cases are very difficult to prove and even if succesful often do not return significant awards. That's why most lawyers, regardless of location, won't take them. Don't expect precedent from this case. Don't even expect this case to go to trial.

Instead expect Grosjean, et al. to not gamble, becaues they are advantage players, and simply settle this matter before it ever goes to trial.

Buick

 

[sighguy]

Re: superb post Steve...n.m

Superb post? There was so convoluted that I got whiplash reading it. I've seen the Griffin books and there's a distinct difference in them between "21 cheats" and "21 counters". While Grosjean picking up the hole card isn't illegal (as long as a device or a bud as the dealer isn't used to "help" in that effort) per se, the presumption is always going to be that cheating is occurring once hole card play is detected. I can't help but believe that Grosjean and Russo are well aware of that fact and should consider it part of "doing business". The way I read all these posts is this: "We (advantange players) can organize attacks against the casinos and we're the 'good guys' - Casinos attempting to organize to protect against advantage players are the 'bad guys'"

I agree that "back-rooming" card counters is wrong (although that's taken on the proportion of an urban legend, since no one can seem to ever give specific proof of it occurring), I have no such compunction against making cheaters lives as miserable as possible.

 

[Abraham de Moivre]

Lay off the hard stuff for a while

>>>I've seen the Griffin books and there's a distinct difference in them between "21 cheats" and "21 counters".
So do you think that everyone labeled in the book as "21 Cheat" is an actual cheat, or do you think some counters could be mis-labeled?

"Uh, Pardon me sir, before we kick you out, were you counting or cheating? We need to make sure for the book."

>>> I can't help but believe that Grosjean and Russo are well aware of that fact and should consider it part of "doing business".
So, was being followed to another casino, and being detained there, a part of 'doing business'?

Having chips confiscated and handcuffed and detained at the other casino, 'doing business'.

Having to post bail and hire lawyers on trumped up charges the casinos knew where false, 'doing business'.

>>>the presumption is always going to be that cheating is occurring once hole card play is detected
The 'presumption of cheating'? The casino can 'presume' anything they want. However, when they start making verbal threats, physical intimidation, false charges, etc., etc. then they have indeed crossed a line.

>>>I have no such compunction against making cheaters lives as miserable as possible.
I agree totally. The casino went out of its way to illegally harrass Grosjean. They used illegal means to cause him harm. They were 'cheating'. The casino should be nailed to the wall.

 

[T-Hopper]

Re: superb post Steve...n.m

I agree that "back-rooming" card counters is wrong (although that's taken on the proportion of an urban legend, since no one can seem to ever give specific proof of it occurring)

Some casinos try to do this after almost every routine backoff. I don't know where you get your information from.

 

[Steve the Convoluted]

what made my post so convoluted?

I'm curious as to what made my post so convoluted. Are you saying that Griffin doesn't use face recognition technology? Or, are you saying that Griffen doesn't put people into their books as "cheats" when they have no real evidence to back up that claim? Or, are you saying that Griffen doesn't give out knowingly false or incomplete information? Or, are you saying that Griffen doesn't illegally obtain the pictures and the information on players that is in their books, since the players never gave the casinos permission to pass personal information onto Griffen, and the player never gave Griffen permission to take their picture? Or, are you saying that handcuffing and assaulting a player for "card bending" when the casino knew full well that the player was not bending cards, easy enough to check this out, just look at the tape of their play that the eye in the sky has, is "fighting the cheaters"? Or, are you saying that a player being followed into a casino and then lied to about the gaming commission's involvement and then the player having his money stolen and having to spend time in jail and having to hire lawyers to fight charges which were never actually brought in the first place is "fighting the cheaters"?

The casino did not suspect Grosjean and Rosso of hole card play, they accused them of bending cards because the information that Griffen supplied claimed that Rosso was a known cheat who uses card bending.

Is this post also convoluted?

Steve

 

[steve]

why the Grosjean case is important

No, the Griffin book won't go away. I'm not sure what benefits can come to players if Grosjean wins. Illegally detaining players and threatening them and handcuffing them and assaulting them, knowing that the police will not follow up on a charge of illegal detention, that becoming a thing of the past, that may be all we can hope for.

Casinos will continue to illegally provide personal information on players to Griffin and Griffin will continue to give out erroneous information. Griffin will continue to label players "cheats" who are not cheating but are skilled players instead. I don't think anything that anyone can do will change that. Illegal detention, that is another matter.

Steve

 

[The Mayor]

Question

You said: "I've seen the Griffin books"

Rumor has it that you work in survelience, I am just curious about this, and what you are willing to share here?

Thanks!

--Mayor

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Question YES!

YES! Any surviellance pros are INVITED to be OPEN here (both sides can LEARN)!

zg (ps - the last time we made this offer 'Lifesabet' stopped posting and instead now spams his own new site at less-informed venues like the you-know-whoCafe)