Hail Mary

wc610

New Member
Hello everyone,

I've been a long time lurker on this site, and appreciate the fine advice and humor I find -- my affinity and skill at blackjack has increased substantially since I began to research the game.

I mainly play SD and DD games where I'm at .. and I've got a question which I don't believe I have seen addressed here in the forums (for at least as long as I've been perusing ... perhaps there is a reason for that ;)) ... with regards to a recent post about bringing BR to the casinos ...

I was just curious how many of you were willing to venture outside of your betting limits after a long losing session (but when you know higher cards are on the way - I guess it'd be like a hail mary) ... I don't do this often (and I don't play blackjack with a too small bankroll either), but have found that it has at least seemed like it has worked more often than it has not.

Still, for an amateur at this game, am I deluding myself? Is it bad form?
FYI, I play nickels in a state with a max bet of only 100 bucks.

Thanks for the input!
 

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
Welcome aboard, wc610. I personally never bet outside (above) my betting limit. That number is predetermined based on ROR and kelly bet size. Many factors must be considered to determine your top bet size such as heat, br size, ror, table limits and the amount of your advantage.

If you have surfed around here enough you know what kelly betting is and that betting full kelly is quite uncomfortable due to variance. Use a simulator prior to attempting your "hail mary" again and plug in your variables and determine what your top bet should be based on your br size and tolerance for pain. With that information you will know if your hail mary is within your br's tolerance or not and you will be able to sleep better at night.

It's important to note that past performance has no bearing on the future so just because your hail mary has won in the past doesn't mean that it will continue to or cease and that even when you have a "huge" advantage in a very high count, it is basically a coin flip whether you win or lose.
 

Shoofly

Well-Known Member
wc610 said:
I was just curious how many of you were willing to venture outside of your betting limits after a long losing session (but when you know higher cards are on the way !
The tightrope we walk is to bet agressively, but stay within our betting limits. You don't KNOW the higher cards are on the way. The mathematical probabilities are that they are on the way. Big difference.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
Shoofly said:
The tightrope we walk is to bet agressively, but stay within our betting limits. You don't KNOW the higher cards are on the way. The mathematical probabilities are that they are on the way. Big difference.
D I F F E R E N C E
I can attest to that from my personal experience! A big difference.
 

blackjack avenger

Well-Known Member
Touchdown?

Do you have enough funds to play properly? The idea of a hail Mary bank is that you are overbetting until you win enough to play a normal game with a reasonable ror. Success is very dependent on your game conditions like if you have plenty of $5 tables available you can try to play a normal game with $2,500. Try to avoid negative hands.

:joker::whip:
good cards
 

prankster

Well-Known Member
I take it you're in South Dakota due to the $100 limit. Do $100 bettors stand out due to the limit?:joker:
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
bankroll it's not the only thing, it's everything!

sufficiently banked and yet taking a hail mary shot? lol, yeah i think i can relate to that. most of the time playing a shoe i couldn't give you a number on the count but i think i know how juicy or not the remaining pack is with respect to ev. so every time i fling that ball at the hoop, little bet, in between bet or the biggie, it's pretty much of an emotion packed hail mary.
even if i knew the count accurately, just me maybe the emotion would still be there, simply because there is that big difference between expected value and results.:rolleyes:
the thing that makes the emotion intensely palpable is your bankroll. given enough bankroll determines the culpability of the play with respect to emotion.
ever had so much of a cash wad in your pocket that Mae West couldn't tell if you were just happy to see her or if you had a gun in your pocket? well, those are the times the plays don't seem so much like hail mary shots.
but cut that wad in half and see how it feels, cut it down to a third, now you really get the picture. then think about what it's gonna take to build that third into three thirds, sorta thing.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
wc610 said:
Hello everyone,

I've been a long time lurker on this site, and appreciate the fine advice and humor I find -- my affinity and skill at blackjack has increased substantially since I began to research the game.

I mainly play SD and DD games where I'm at .. and I've got a question which I don't believe I have seen addressed here in the forums (for at least as long as I've been perusing ... perhaps there is a reason for that ;)) ... with regards to a recent post about bringing BR to the casinos ...

I was just curious how many of you were willing to venture outside of your betting limits after a long losing session (but when you know higher cards are on the way - I guess it'd be like a hail mary) ... I don't do this often (and I don't play blackjack with a too small bankroll either), but have found that it has at least seemed like it has worked more often than it has not.

Still, for an amateur at this game, am I deluding myself? Is it bad form?
FYI, I play nickels in a state with a max bet of only 100 bucks.

Thanks for the input!
In a cool and rational moment, you selected a bankroll amount you could comfortably live with. Now, in the heat of the moment, losing hand after hand with maximum bet out, heart pounding, desirous only of a quick and satisfactory comeback, eye on your advantage, time quickly running out, you are deciding calmly, cooly, dispassionately, rationally, unemotionally, safe in your little cocoon of peace and tranquility, to change your maximum bet and by inference your bankroll size (Kelly betting) and resultant RoR (because surely you are not thinking about violating your RoR, the level of safety you carefully chose for your play)? I'm not buying it! A Hail Mary is a desperation play to win a game in the last few seconds. Have you NO CHANCE to succeed by sticking to your prescribed limits? If it is the ONLY possible way to recover your mangled bankroll, heck yeah, go for it. But if the current events are just taking you down further than you had wished, but not to your last breath, I say, stick with your original game plan.

If you lose a bundle, you lose a bundle. It was never intended to be an easy ride. It has its ups and downs, some of them steep like the Alps, but in the end, it's a train ride across those mighty mountains that rarely ends in total disaster (your did properly calculate your RoR, didn't you?). It's like the engineer on that train ride deciding to outrun the storm even though his calculations show that he is still comfortably within safety limits, unless this turns out to be the storm of the century. It's been snowing a long time, but you cannot resort to the gambler's fallacy (I'm due, the snow can't keep up forever, I "know higher cards are on the way" <your words, not mine>), and throw all your educated planning to the winds. I say categorically, "NO!"

That being said, I've done it.:eek: It's giving in to your emotions over your intellect. It's trying to "get lucky." It's assuming all the higher cards could not possibly hit all around you but not on you, or that a disproportionate amount of high cards could not be contained behind the cut card. It is irrational. It is my practice to discipline myself against doing these things, which are not in my best interest. Remember. It is all one continuous session; winning the present session IS NOT the goal; winning in the long run IS the goal. Chasing my money is probably why my largest losing session has always been larger than my largest winning session.

It has the marks of a loser: When losing in positive counts, losers want to raise the ante and get even. When winning in positive counts, losers want to preserve winnings, so they lower their bet. The result: bigger losses, smaller winnings.

But don't take my word for it. Hey, you did the calculations. It's your money and your game. I'm just giving my two cents. But I've found that those reckless over-betting sessions that end well just serve to ingrain in one the wisdom of such folly. When you lose the big one, you may think differently! In the meantime, I hope you will reconsider the Hail Mary; it should not be thrown at half time or third quarter; it is properly only thrown when all other possibilities have been exhausted--the final seconds. It is not a last resort--it is THE last resort.

If you do suffer an extreme loss but did not chase your money by raising your max bet, now is the time to consider whether you want to add more cash to your bankroll (might have to postpone your next session), or to readjust your game plan to a lower betting min/max. When you are out of the heat of battle, it's time to reconsider your battle plan, not when the hordes of ugly orcs are charging you on horseback with slashing swords.

Fight gallantly, but do not overestimate your strength. A properly calculated max bet is the best way back from defeat, not creating a surge attack ala Iraq when you don't have the troops to back it up (if you do have extra reserves, then I suggest you did not properly select your bankroll size; if you undervalued your bankroll on purpose, then you designed your game plan to leave extra money on the table???). The session is only a battle, not the entire war. The better disciplined you are in sticking to a proper game plan, the more chance you have of being successful in the long run. All things being equal, Hail Mary thinking (if by that you mean increasing your max bet to quickly recover your losses, but not at the end of your bankroll) raises your RoR to unacceptable levels and should always be avoided; it's throwing the long run up for grabs!
 
Last edited:

wc610

New Member
thanks for all the responses

I appreciate all the input, several of you have hit on points that resonated with me -- especially in the difference between knowing versus assuming that high cards are on the way ... admittedly, when the favorability for me starts to climb high, i often catch myself assuming that i somehow 'knew' that it was supposed to happen, when in reality, i could still only guess, at best.

The other point - the emotional aspect of putting it all out there ... I should have at least realized that myself, as clearly it is that sort of decision, and that of course reflects back to my bankroll. I stated that I felt adequately funded, but in retrospect, it sounds like because i am allowing my emotions to get the best of me when I put a couple max bets out there, that I should probably re-evaluate that. Truth be told, I've got a pretty sizable savings already, and have managed to have many, many winning sessions, but I've never really put the pen to the paper in order to really figure out what a reasonable BR size (out of my savings) for me is. i am playing nickels, and 3k was about the amount that I had already figured in my head.

All in all, I see the point in your arguments, and appreciate the input -- I shall put it into practice. Thanks again! It is Colorado by the way.
 

apex

Well-Known Member
i have been known to do it

Your max bet is usually based on some fraction of kelly at tc 5ish. Sometimes ill throw out a double max bet when tc exceeds 10 if I think I can get away with it.
 

blackjack avenger

Well-Known Member
Total Involvement

If you can split to make 3 hands with doubling then divide your bank into 7 units. Then wait for a tc2 or tc3 and bet 1 unit and resize after every hand until you get to your ideal proper bank. If you can split to make 4 hands with doubling then divide bank by 9. Once you get to your proper bank STOP!

I don't recommend doing the above!

I would recommend the following:
1. Add to bank from a job.
2. Play when you have a proper session amount.
3. Play when your ev is twice your job.
4. If following 2 & 3 means you are not playing much due to lack of funds, then repeat step 1 until you do have the funds.
Repeat until your full bank is realized.

:joker::whip:
good cards
you will need them
 
Top