Hand composition question

hawkeye

Well-Known Member
I've only read a few books on BJ and none have gotten that deep into hand composition.

I have a question, it's not a scenario that comes up all that much, but it illustrates the general idea I'm asking about.

You get a 5/2, dealer shows an 8.
You hit and get a 3, hit again and get a 6.
Do you still hit?
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
hawkeye said:
You get a 5/2, dealer shows an 8.
You hit and get a 3, hit again and get a 6.
Do you still hit?
Yes, still hit. You would need about 4 more low cards per deck before you should think about standing. This decision is not even close so there is not a composition dependent rule that covers it. Just always hit. Other decisions like 16 vs. 10 and 12 vs. 4 are pretty close calls so the composition of your hand can affect the decisions, but most hands do not have a composition dependent decision.

-Sonny-
 

hawkeye

Well-Known Member
Thanks.

Do you know of a good book that covers these situations? I know they don't come up that often, but in playing at home I always notice them. Although my home games aren't enough hands to use as a sample, it still seems like there are other rules that I don't know about yet when things like this pop up.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
There are two (and really none others), but you need them both in any case.

Blackjack Attack, 3rd ed. by Don Schlesinger
Theory of Blackjack, 6th ed. by Peter Griffin

If you (mistakenly) only wish to get one, get "BlackJack Attack"
If you are very tight on funds get the latter for now and get the former later.

These are the only books that contain perfect Basic Strategy Charts for all conditions; with Shlesinger's masterpiece including both Composition and Regular B.S.

They are both available on-line or from Borders or Branes & Nobles OR (used) at half.ebay.com
 

SD Padres

Well-Known Member
FLASH1296 said:
There are two (and really none others), but you need them both in any case.

Blackjack Attack, 3rd ed. by Don Schlesinger
Theory of Blackjack, 6th ed. by Peter Griffin

If you (mistakenly) only wish to get one, get "BlackJack Attack"
If you are very tight on funds get the latter for now and get the former later.

These are the only books that contain perfect Basic Strategy Charts for all conditions; with Shlesinger's masterpiece including both Composition and Regular B.S.

They are both available on-line or from Borders or Branes & Nobles OR (used) at half.ebay.com
I don't use Hi-Lo or Halves anymore but I would say that Professional Blackjack is a must read for anyone serious about the game.
 

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
hand composition

I do believe that Renzey has some of the best compostion dependant hands explained in his book. blackchipjim
 

k_c

Well-Known Member
FLASH1296 said:
There are two (and really none others), but you need them both in any case.

Blackjack Attack, 3rd ed. by Don Schlesinger
Theory of Blackjack, 6th ed. by Peter Griffin

If you (mistakenly) only wish to get one, get "BlackJack Attack"
If you are very tight on funds get the latter for now and get the former later.

These are the only books that contain perfect Basic Strategy Charts for all conditions; with Shlesinger's masterpiece including both Composition and Regular B.S.

They are both available on-line or from Borders or Branes & Nobles OR (used) at half.ebay.com
If you're interested in being able to use the convenience of a computer, the program shown in the attached image can be used. Additionally it can compute probabilities for any number of decks and any shoe composition. Program is available at link in my signature with a free trial period of 15 days at present. It's the one referencing theoretical probablities.

Another program that does comp dependent calculations and is very good is by Eric Farmer and it is a free open source program. It also includes a practice game. It's previous versions miscalculated splits although not too badly and the errors were only when resplitting was allowed. The new version has reworked split algorithms and although I haven't looked at the code as yet I think it is a safe bet that the splits are now right given that everything other than splits has always been right on.
 

Attachments

hawkeye

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone.

I'm just getting back into this after being forced to take a break due to financial restraints. I need to start all over again, so I figured I could read some new books too. gracias
 

tribute

Well-Known Member
blackchipjim said:
I do believe that Renzey has some of the best compostion dependant hands explained in his book. blackchipjim
I like Renzey's explanations, too. I don't have the book handy, but he mentions standing on 3-card 16's and even hitting 12 vs 4 when the 12 contains a 10,2.
 

nottooshabby

Well-Known Member
tribute said:
I like Renzey's explanations, too. I don't have the book handy, but he mentions standing on 3-card 16's and even hitting 12 vs 4 when the 12 contains a 10,2.
I believe that standing on the three-card 16 applies when the hand contains a 4 or 5. However, I have read somewhere (I really think it was on Wizard of Odds) that an exception to this rule is when the hand is composed of 6,6,4. Also, if someone can confirm I believe another exception is when the hand is composed of 10,4,2 (from the same source that gave the advice regarding 6,6,4).

Also remember that standing on the 3-card 16 only applies when the dealer has a 10 showing.
 
Last edited:

Kasi

Well-Known Member
nottooshabby said:
I believe that standing on the three-card 16 applies when the hand contains a 4 or 5. However, I have read somewhere (I really think it was on Wizard of Odds) that an exception to this rule is when the hand is composed of 6,6,4. Also, if someone can confirm I believe another exception is when the hand is composed of 10,4,2 (from the same source that gave the advice regarding 6,6,4).

Also remember that standing on the 3-card 16 only applies when the dealer has a 10 showing.
I think you have it lol.

Best thing is have the program that k_c offers. It's 100% accurate as far as I can tell. (Sorry k-c - that probably is a negative endorsement in the minds of most coming from me).

I don't know where I got this stuff from but I get 10,4,2 vs dealer 10 in an S17 game is a Stand on at least 1 thru 6 decks but a Hit in 8D.

I get 6,6,4 vs 10 is a hit in 1 thru 8 decks in an S17 game.

Conversely I get things like 10,5.A vs 10 is a Hit in 1 thru 8 decks vs 10
in S17 games.

So, while it may be true to "always hit 3-card 16's vs 10" or even "always stand on 3-card 16's vs 10 when the 3 cards contain a 4 or 5" on average, it may also be true that there are execptions to those rule because some hands occur with less frequency than others.

I never cared much about an H17 Game because I never played one.

I regret, and personally apologise to you k_c, for never having taken you up on an offer to try out your program for free.

Every thing your program said I remember I agreed with 100% when I used your trial offer.

It's just that by the time I got my glacier-like lazy ass to take you up on your offer, it was no longer there lol.

As anyone knows, I'm much better at talking the talk than walking the walk.

At the risk of ruining any future sales, I love your program in that it answers a million questions with 100% accuracy as far as I could tell. Which means basically nothing. (Not that it means nothing as far as it answers them correctly but as far as "I can tell" lol)

I love Norm's stuff too but I don't have it either (except CVBJ - version 2 or 2.1 or so lmao) so don't feel bad.

I figure my endorsements of his stuff have cost him more than my endorsements of you :grin:

Seroiuosly folks, believe it or not, if you want to know stuff like this, and if you can't put pencil to paper to questions like this, or don't have the time,
just spend the money to buy it.

This comp-dependent crap saved me 0.0003 of every dollar I wagered in a particular game. One million dollars later of wagering in that particular game that was $300 to me.

Not alot of absolute dollars, granted, but, what the heck, thanks, someone, for the 6 cases of free vodka.

Not to mention the priceless value of pissing wannabe BS players off who only know the rule "always hit 16 vs 10" and want to to kick my ass in the parking lot later just because I may have made the right play but it is beyond their limited understanding lmao.

OK - in real life it really hasn't made a measurable difference but, still, I still make the correct comp-dependent BSplay just to get a rise out of people.
On the internet, it actually has saved me, by my estimate, about $300. Woo-hoo lol.

$1MM later of wagers, do I really care that much about $300 anyway?

So when in AC playing BS, I hit in an S17 8D game
10,4,2
10,3,3
9,6,A
8,6,2
7,6,3
6,6,4
and stand on
10,5,A
9,5,2
9,4,3
8,7,A
8,5,3
8,4,4
7,7,2
7,5,4
6,5,5
vs dealer 10 just for the fun of it realizing it won't make much difference anyway lol.

Hopefully, k_c's program would verify all that.
 

k_c

Well-Known Member
Kasi said:
I think you have it lol.

Best thing is have the program that k_c offers. It's 100% accurate as far as I can tell. (Sorry k-c - that probably is a negative endorsement in the minds of most coming from me).

I don't know where I got this stuff from but I get 10,4,2 vs dealer 10 in an S17 game is a Stand on at least 1 thru 6 decks but a Hit in 8D.

I get 6,6,4 vs 10 is a hit in 1 thru 8 decks in an S17 game.

Conversely I get things like 10,5.A vs 10 is a Hit in 1 thru 8 decks vs 10
in S17 games.

So, while it may be true to "always hit 3-card 16's vs 10" or even "always stand on 3-card 16's vs 10 when the 3 cards contain a 4 or 5" on average, it may also be true that there are execptions to those rule because some hands occur with less frequency than others.

I never cared much about an H17 Game because I never played one.

I regret, and personally apologise to you k_c, for never having taken you up on an offer to try out your program for free.

Every thing your program said I remember I agreed with 100% when I used your trial offer.

It's just that by the time I got my glacier-like lazy ass to take you up on your offer, it was no longer there lol.

As anyone knows, I'm much better at talking the talk than walking the walk.

At the risk of ruining any future sales, I love your program in that it answers a million questions with 100% accuracy as far as I could tell. Which means basically nothing. (Not that it means nothing as far as it answers them correctly but as far as "I can tell" lol)

I love Norm's stuff too but I don't have it either (except CVBJ - version 2 or 2.1 or so lmao) so don't feel bad.

I figure my endorsements of his stuff have cost him more than my endorsements of you :grin:

Seroiuosly folks, believe it or not, if you want to know stuff like this, and if you can't put pencil to paper to questions like this, or don't have the time,
just spend the money to buy it.

This comp-dependent crap saved me 0.0003 of every dollar I wagered in a particular game. One million dollars later of wagering in that particular game that was $300 to me.

Not alot of absolute dollars, granted, but, what the heck, thanks, someone, for the 6 cases of free vodka.

Not to mention the priceless value of pissing wannabe BS players off who only know the rule "always hit 16 vs 10" and want to to kick my ass in the parking lot later just because I may have made the right play but it is beyond their limited understanding lmao.

OK - in real life it really hasn't made a measurable difference but, still, I still make the correct comp-dependent BSplay just to get a rise out of people.
On the internet, it actually has saved me, by my estimate, about $300. Woo-hoo lol.

$1MM later of wagers, do I really care that much about $300 anyway?

So when in AC playing BS, I hit in an S17 8D game
10,4,2
10,3,3
9,6,A
8,6,2
7,6,3
6,6,4
and stand on
10,5,A
9,5,2
9,4,3
8,7,A
8,5,3
8,4,4
7,7,2
7,5,4
6,5,5
vs dealer 10 just for the fun of it realizing it won't make much difference anyway lol.

Hopefully, k_c's program would verify all that.
I came up with a hit strategy system for dealer up card of 10. You might find it interesting. As far as I know it shows the optimal way to hit versus a 10 for 1 to 8 decks. (Dead link: http://www.bjstrat.net/Ten.htm) _ Hitting vs ten_
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
k_c said:
I came up with a hit strategy system for dealer up card of 10. You might find it interesting. As far as I know it shows the optimal way to hit versus a 10 for 1 to 8 decks. (Dead link: http://www.bjstrat.net/Ten.htm) _ Hitting vs ten_
Now that's what I call a Basic Strategy card.

Think I'll print it and take it on my next trip.

Nice work - and thanks for relieving me of any concerns that what I thought might not be accurate as, from what I could check out, it agreed with what I thought lol.

But I pretty much stopped at 4-card hands lol.

Although I did include 3 and 4-card hand 15's and 16's vs dealer 9 lmao.
 
Top