Hand interaction play.

[UK-21]

I'm well on my way to finishing Mr Renzey's Blackjack Bluebook II, and am curious to know the extent to which hand interaction play happens in practice? Perhaps some of the more worldly wise of the felt could give some pointers on:-

How common is it?

What tends to be the reaction of those players approached? Are most up for it, respond with "FO and play your own game" type comments or just at a loss as to why you'd want to cover their double etc.

Does it set of alarms with the dealers/floorstaff, that they have someone at the table who knows what they're doing, when it happens? Fred refers to the opportunity of taking insurance on another player's hand, although says to be careful as it is effectively hustling a piece of the house action. Is this a sure way to put your name in the frame?


Newb99

 

[creeping panther]

newb99-crass move

I believe you can create alot of problems with trying to play out or back others hands.

In many casinos I frequent I have been allowed to play only if I never talk or consult with other players at my table, there is a good reason for this, on the casinos part. I do not fault them for it.

For various reasons you will shorten your playing career if you attempt such actions. I find people that attempt this are boorish, pushy, insulting, crass and showing a severe lack of class.

If someone ever attempts this play on me it will for sure and for certain come back to haunt them, and it could get ugly under certain conditions.

When at a serious BJ table take this advice, MYOB!

CP

 

[21forme]

I've done it occasionally. For example, young guy put his last chips down and got 2 aces and didn't have the money to split. Naturally, I offered to help him out, the good samaritan that I am Once in a while, I'll offer a double down, or add to a "double for less." However, for the most part, I find it's better not to get involved with other players.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It can be profitable, and also good cover because it makes you look like you are there to socialize rather than make money, but be careful! My advice would be to interact only with those of similar age and nationality, who will have the same understanding of the terms of the deal as you. Never do this with someone speaking broken English who will then claim they didn't understand what you meant when you made the offer.

Also you don't want to be unethical by encouraging hand interaction plays that hurt the civilian for your benefit. Limit it to stuff like partnering with people determined to double for less, or who are unable or afraid to do offensive splits. (Make sure you know the difference between offensive and defensive splits.) It's just another way to transfer chips from the dealer's tray to your pile, and should be exploited.

 

[shadroch]

I find that it depends upon the table. Some tables are very social,some are manned by sticks in the mud.If the table is light and festive,you throw out a suggestion if someone is reluctant to split Aces, as an example. Or you fill in the rest of a Double Down for less.If the atmoshere is fresh and breezy,youcan get away with it much more often than if you are playing with a bunch of cantankerous old men.

 

[Renzey]

I do it fairly often

Act sociable. Be lighthearted. Take Insurance for a pittance when the dealer's got an Ace up against your 14 at a "nothing special" count. Congratulate third base when he "saves the table".
Offer half of your 7/7 vs. 2 or your 6/6 vs. 3 or your 2/2 vs. 7 to the player next to you.
When you and the player next to you are both dealt an Ace on your first card, quickly propose that you split the profit on the smaller amount if either of you get a blackjack.
If he's dubious about doubling down on a hand, offer to go halves -- almost no matter what he has since almost none of them will have a negative EV.
If you win a big bet, bet a dollar for the dealer on everybody's hand. Offer to cap off anybody's double for less. Mix it up. Get the max bets out there when you should. Pocket chips. Wish everybody luck when you leave the table. Comment how everybody was fun to play with.

 

[Renzey]

Fred refers to the opportunity of taking insurance on another player's hand, although says to be careful as it is effectively hustling a piece of the house action. Is this a sure way to put your name in the frame?Newb99

That advice actually, was to pay another player slightly over even money on his blackjack against an Ace. This tidbit was in the "Just Beyond Basic Strategy" chapter along with high card/low card layouts, the Mag-7 hands, and not particularly developed for card counters.

 

[blackchipjim]

interaction vs loner

One piece of advice is to size the table up and casino enviroment. What's the attitude toward smart players vs dummies. I don't offer any advice sometimes because the pit bosses are jerks and don't want the uneeded attention to my play. I use some simple math that I came up with to accertain if interaction could be used it follows. If the sum of the people at the tables IQ does not equal the sum of their shoe sizes don't bother.:laugh: blackchipjim

 

[UK-21]

That last piece of advice echos my own thoughts on the matter. Whilst I'm sure it's good advice as a means of chalking up a few more £££/$$$s, I can also see it creating unnecessary waves. Afterall, nobody likes a smartass?

 

[callipygian]

Are most up for it, respond with "FO and play your own game" type comments or just at a loss as to why you'd want to cover their double etc.

The answer is probably dependent on the minimum of the table. In my opinion, at lower limit tables, most people will assume that you're just a friendly guy who's willing to help them out. At higher limit tables, people won't.

This post is entirely based on a sample size of two people, one at a $5 table (I bought a 11 vs. 6 off of him, and then later went partner on a 10 vs. 5 or something) and one at a $25 table (who eyed me suspiciously and then waved the dealer for a hit without ever responding to me).

 

[Renzey]

The answer is probably dependent on the minimum of the table. In my opinion, at lower limit tables, most people will assume that you're just a friendly guy who's willing to help them out. At higher limit tables, people won't.

Many of the plays I've mentioned here have been made at $50 and $100 minimum tables. Hundred dollar minimum players particularly, seem more entrepeneurial and willing to toss their chips around in joint ventures. And the bigger their own bet on one particular hand, the more willing they are to accept a partnership on a double or a split -- especially if it's a risky looking double that stems from a re-split.

 

[Renzey]

Whilst I'm sure hand interaction is good advice as a means of chalking up a few more £££/$$$s, I can also see it creating unnecessary waves. Afterall, nobody likes a smartass?

I had not considered up to this point that this is an international board. It sounds as though you may reside in the UK, and it might be that typical demeanor at the table there is more reserved -- hence, less receptive to hand interaction? (never played there).

 

[EasyRhino]

And the bigger their own bet on one particular hand, the more willing they are to accept a partnership on a double or a split -- especially if it's a risky looking double that stems from a re-split.

Which reminds me, in the split second of negotiation before interacting on a split, I often prefer to "go dutch" with the other player. In other words, we split the results of the hand, win or lose, 50/50, rather than simply "buying" one of the hand's results. Just as a modest form of risk mitigation. But I'll take it either way.

 

[Renzey]

In the split second of negotiation before interacting on a split, I often prefer to "go dutch" with the other player. In other words, we split the results of the entire hand, win or lose, 50/50, rather than simply "buying" one of the hand's results. Just as a modest form of risk mitigation.

I'm convinced that's the best way to go. It keeps the overall EV the same, reduces the SD and most of all, prevents any sour grapes that could come from you winning your end and him losing his.

I once did however, have a partner on my split who initially agreed to splitting the results of both hands -- but then did'nt want to re-split when I caught a third card of the same rank. Had to take that one on myself.

 

[Mimosine]

Which reminds me, in the split second of negotiation before interacting on a split, I often prefer to "go dutch" with the other player. In other words, we split the results of the hand, win or lose, 50/50, rather than simply "buying" one of the hand's results. Just as a modest form of risk mitigation. But I'll take it either way.

i've done both, and the dutch approach is my current M.O., for ease of use, quickness, and inherent fairness. your partner will immediately recognize that he won't get a crap hand and you stuck with a winner. i've been in a situation where we split a hand, then shared one of the DAS, 50/50 the whole way.

made out great on that hand, both of us were smiling.

there are pros/cons to both, but for me this is the easiest way to convince someone else to go along with your seemingly altruistic plan.

 

[SammyBoy]

Scavenger Blackjack

It's called scavenger blackjack and I take advantage of it every chance I get. I usually try to play alone or with one other at most so the opportunities do not come as often anymore. But back when I was a red chipper I never let an opportunity to cover a double for less go by.

 

[BJinNJ]

Question...

Do ploppies ever attempt hand interaction plays among themselves?

BJinNJ

 

[EasyRhino]

Sure, I've had them volunteer to go in on MY plays. Which I only rarely accept!

 

[Renzey]

Sure, I've had them volunteer to go in on MY plays. Which I only rarely accept!

Just within the last couple of months, I've had 2/2 against a 3 in a DAS game (2% loser) and asked the player next to me if I'm supposed to split those. She said, "Sure, I split those." I hesitated with a grimace, and she continued, "Don't you want to?" I responded, "I hate this hand -- It seems like I always lose with it". She said, "I'll buy one of them then", while offering me the chips. I suggested that we simply go 50-50 on the whole hand, and she agreed.

Another time I had 6/6 against a 3 (6% loser) and again asked for advice. Third base sternly suggested that I split. When I hesitated, he impatiently threw me my initial bet and offered to take over the entire hand -- which he did.

Most recently, I had 7/7 against a deuce (14% loser), hesitated and merely looked at the other player quizzically. That's all it took. He threw me a bet and said, "Here -- I go partner with you."

These occurences are not rare. You could probably get more of them if you aggressively went into solicitation mode. But I've become a bit conscientous about that, and generally just do it with players who seem to be trying to take advantage of my ignorance. I'm a bit surprised at the posters who say they see little or none of this.

 

[jimpenn]

Fred's Defense Plays

Fred immediately understands "Value." He stands over good AP's with his social interaction and street sense. Let's face it, he plays High Roller Rooms when he gets the opportunity. No question he pays for green fees with his tongue during 4 hr session. A month ago I was player in HR room and placed a $500 bet out. I failed to consider DD prior to making bet. I caught DD and only had $200 cash in pocket. I was doubling for less and guy next to me asked to make up difference Why should I care? It was an easy decision and he ended up making $300 on one play with a highly positive win value considering count. To continue on a regular basis hawking people's advantage play takes a little "something" that most do not have. You just have to understand how to put the words in the right order when setting up participation in defense partnerships.