Help for a newbie to counting

[person1125]

there is a casino by me that offers a 2-deck game that i am interested in playing. however they deal face down. So when is the best time to count?? do i count as the others are hitting - if i don't my decision could be different base upon the count. Or do i only count if they bust and throw their cards in and then count the rest as the dealer turns the cards over to get the totals?? Any sort of tips would be great help.

 

[bj bob]

Follow the "View"

It's really pretty simple. Just follow the order of the "viewable" cards in this manner: 1) Your hole cards 2) Dealer's up card 3) Any exposed BJ's and double downs ,then direct your attention to 1st base for "hit "cards and busted hands as they are turned over, then 2nd etc. the last card you'll count is 4) the dealer's hole card and any dealer draw. If you maintain the same pattern it will be a piece of cake.

 

[NDN21]

Help

You have said you are a newbie so I would like to ask a question.

Before you go into counting face down games (I don't play these much but just common sense tells me it's going to be harder than face up) how is you counting at face up games?

I would get face up games down before I try the seemingly more advanced face down games. Get to the point where you don't have to count all the cards i.e. pairs canceling (that saves you mucho time). I have read where many newbies will practice for a few hours, thinking they got it down, but then go the casino and get blown away. Sometimes they know they are in over their head, sometimes they deny it and cost themselves alot of money.

If you go to face down games too soon you could be causing yourself to make many mistakes but you wouldn't know you are making mistakes (ego, "it worked at home", etc.) and that could cost you alot of money.

But if you must continue to face down games then I offer this..................don't actually play when you are learning to count face down, just stand there for a bit, all the while practicing you face down counting.

 

[mdlbj]

I have found that playing the "face down games" Strengthens my game.. When I sit at tables that are face up, It is like a cake walk.

 

[ScottH]

I have found that playing the "face down games" Strengthens my game.. When I sit at tables that are face up, It is like a cake walk.

Hey now, don't be so downgrading to cake walks! They are actually quite hard to beat... me and supercoolmancool developed a way, but we never got around to doing it. Maybe we can try again when the grade school's carnivals come around again...

 

[luvMY$$$]

I'm also new to AP. First off, great website, and kudos to you gurus of the game. I've been playin 6 deck, basic bj rules, 1-5 bet spread at my local sandbox for about 3 months.(one night a week) I've read Avery Cardoza's guide to bj and blackbelt in bj by Snyder. While tryin to use red 7 system, I've been able to finish my sessions a winner 10 times, even 1nce, loser 1nce. I'm well schooled by you guys and your storys to know that I'm on a good ride, and unless I get my AP down cold, I'm headed for a brick wall. My problem is I'm a social butterfly, the players, the dealers, pit personel, drinks girl, wink wink. I get half way throu the deck and blam I'm lost. I also have self inflicted short term memory loss from my younger days. I carry a deck and count on my lunch breaks at work, tryin to get my membrane to speed up. My question is, would I be better off counting tens and aces? I don't know how that system works (if it is one), but it sounds...here's that word...easier. If it is worth tryin, is there a link with the info I would need, or book I could read. I luvMY$$$ ,and would like to make more, so your advice would be greatly appreciated. thank you

 

[luvMY$$$]

I'm also new to AP. First off, great website, and kudos to you gurus of the game. I've been playin 6 deck, basic bj rules, 1-5 bet spread at my local sandbox for about 3 months.(one night a week) I've read Avery Cardoza's guide to bj and blackbelt in bj by Snyder. While tryin to use red 7 system, I've been able to finish my sessions a winner 10 times, even 1nce, loser 1nce. I'm well schooled by you guys and your storys to know that I'm on a good ride, and unless I get my AP down cold, I'm headed for a brick wall. My problem is I'm a social butterfly, the players, the dealers, pit personel, drinks girl, wink wink. I get half way throu the deck and blam I'm lost. I also have self inflicted short term memory loss from my younger days. I carry a deck and count on my lunch breaks at work, tryin to get my membrane to speed up. My question is, would I be better off counting tens and aces? I don't know how that system works (if it is one), but it sounds...here's that word...easier. If it is worth tryin, is there a link with the info I would need, or book I could read. I luvMY$$$ ,and would like to make more, so your advice would be greatly appreciated. thank you

 

[mdlbj]

I'm also new to AP. First off, great website, and kudos to you gurus of the game. I've been playin 6 deck, basic bj rules, 1-5 bet spread at my local sandbox for about 3 months.(one night a week) I've read Avery Cardoza's guide to bj and blackbelt in bj by Snyder. While tryin to use red 7 system, I've been able to finish my sessions a winner 10 times, even 1nce, loser 1nce. I'm well schooled by you guys and your storys to know that I'm on a good ride, and unless I get my AP down cold, I'm headed for a brick wall. My problem is I'm a social butterfly, the players, the dealers, pit personel, drinks girl, wink wink. I get half way throu the deck and blam I'm lost. I also have self inflicted short term memory loss from my younger days. I carry a deck and count on my lunch breaks at work, tryin to get my membrane to speed up. My question is, would I be better off counting tens and aces? I don't know how that system works (if it is one), but it sounds...here's that word...easier. If it is worth tryin, is there a link with the info I would need, or book I could read. I luvMY$$$ ,and would like to make more, so your advice would be greatly appreciated. thank you

You should use a balanced count. And count in meaningful pairs. You lack dedication to the art of counting. If a ho talks to you brush her off and play your game..

 

[mdlbj]

Hey now, don't be so downgrading to cake walks! They are actually quite hard to beat... me and supercoolmancool developed a way, but we never got around to doing it. Maybe we can try again when the grade school's carnivals come around again...

I won 10 cakes in a cake walk. When I was 11. I doubled down...

 

[luvMY$$$]

balanced count requires converting to true count per decks left, correct? I'm poppin migrane pills just thinkin about that. I don't have percentages handy, but in snyders book he compared ko, red 7's, hi low, and while the balanced system showed better numbers, they weren't big enough for me to justify the harder of the systems. (I know I'm a panzy) But back to my original ? Is there a system where you count just the tens and aces, with some kind of advantage for the social butterfly player.

also when I practice with my deck I usually flip 3 or 4 cards at a time to practice canceling, is that meaningful pairs?

 

[sagefr0g]

Is there a system where you count just the tens and aces, with some kind of advantage for the social butterfly player.

yep the ace/ten front count.(note: it only yields a very small advantage) i used it extensively for a while. had good results for the most part then hit some pretty mean fluctuation. after that i decided to go ahead and learn hi/lo . heh, heh still run into some pretty mean fluctuation even with that.
you can learn more about the ace/ten front count from Fred Renzey's Blackjack Blue Book II .
or try the following link:
http://anmore2003.tripod.com/BeyondBasicStrategy/id15.htm (Archive copy)

 

[eps6724]

I'm not one of the 'guru's'-still learning MUCH myself. The ace/ten front count is in Blackjack Bluebook II. Also is his expandable KISS count, which takes up and explains MUCH about the workings of the unbalanced counts (red7). It really cleared up a lot for me. (I started out with Snyder's Blackbelt in Blackjack, then read Revere's Blackjack as a Business and THEN read Bluebook. Wish I would have read 'em in reverse order!)

Cheers!

 

[bluewhale]

i really REALLY recommend a good counting system as your first one. ie the hi/low. first off the hi/low by FAR has the most information on it. secondly it is a powerful system. also once you learn a worse system like the A 10 front or red 7, you are likely to just stick with that and not better your game. finally, you can read a thread of mine about me learning the hi/low, its really not that hard. when i started out, i was absolutely terrible, and then, almost miraculously, i just started getting it right consistantly. now i find myself getting pissed at ppl for taking too long and slowing down play at the tables. so yeah, you'll learn it fairly quickly, and once you do, you have it for life. you'll be able to beat virtually every casino on the planet, and believe me, its a good feeling.

 

[dacium]

I think your better off with Ace/five count, then move onto High/Low count because the transition is flawless. Doing front cuonts and other weighted crap is going to be stuff learned for nothing evetually.

 

[Renzey]

Alright, here's the thing. While most of the blackjack players on this forum are dedicated to putting in the practice hours and learning a solid plus/minus system, that's not everybody. I know a number of people who have taken the trouble to learn their basic strategy pretty well and just want something to get them over the hump from underdog to favorite at the game. These people may play blackjack only once a month and aren't really interested in financing their play with a cushy long term bankroll. They may be willing to go to the casino with a reasonable session bankroll, put in a little extra effort towards improving their chances and that's about the extent of their ambitions since they are after all, still recreational players.

There are an awful lot of players out there in that same category, and for them, I sincerely believe the Ace/10 Front Count fits the bill. It's not a plus/minus system, but merely a "tallying up" of the Ace/10's together as they're played out -- BUT -- only as far as the first two dealt decks of a six deck shoe. That's the point where this player stops counting, takes inventory on the condition of the shoe and either finishes the shoe with a 1 unit bet, increases it to between 4 and 6 units, or walks away from the table.

Doing this will net a positive EV of about 0.25% in the typical shoe game which would otherwise have the basic strategist at a 0.50% negative EV. It's nothing to get rich on -- and -- as has been discussed here a lot, any kind of spread betting will increase your volatility quite a bit. To be solidly financed for the day, you need to have 12 maximum bets in your pocket each time you go out to play.

 

[dacium]

Which is exactally why its rediculous. How many are actually go to spread properly? I can tell you have many - none. If the table is $10 minimum you need to have $700 just to be able to have 12 max bets, and lot of this time you are going to loose it all, so your bank roll would be god knows how high, probably wan to thave $10k, what a joke.

 

[luvMY$$$]

hey, thanks for your replies. where can I get info on ace/five count, and what would be a good book for hi/lo, or link with enough info. I don't need a book for 60 indices either, since I'm working on about 8 to 10 right now. lol renzy, sagefrog thanks for your input, I'm gonna read up on ace/ten just for knowledge sake, but ace/five with transition to hi/lo sounds like a winner winner chicken dinner. thanks again

 

[Renzey]

Dacium -- You should have roughly 12 max. bets in your pocket to play a shoe game with any counting system.

 

[Canceler]

also when I practice with my deck I usually flip 3 or 4 cards at a time to practice canceling, is that meaningful pairs?

Not sure exactly what he meant by "meaningful pairs", but you've definitely got the right idea. It's the canceling that's really useful. And if you can't cancel the pair, it's easier to go "+2", rather than "+1, +1", for example.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Gambling = Death

Alright, here's the thing. While most of the blackjack players on this forum are dedicated to putting in the practice hours and learning a solid plus/minus system, that's not everybody. I know a number of people who have taken the trouble to learn their basic strategy pretty well and just want something to get them over the hump from underdog to favorite at the game. These people may play blackjack only once a month and aren't really interested in financing their play with a cushy long term bankroll. They may be willing to go to the casino with a reasonable session bankroll, put in a little extra effort towards improving their chances and that's about the extent of their ambitions since they are after all, still recreational players.

There are an awful lot of players out there in that same category, and for them, I sincerely believe the Ace/10 Front Count fits the bill. It's not a plus/minus system, but merely a "tallying up" of the Ace/10's together as they're played out -- BUT -- only as far as the first two dealt decks of a six deck shoe. That's the point where this player stops counting, takes inventory on the condition of the shoe and either finishes the shoe with a 1 unit bet, increases it to between 4 and 6 units, or walks away from the table.

Doing this will net a positive EV of about 0.25% in the typical shoe game which would otherwise have the basic strategist at a 0.50% negative EV. It's nothing to get rich on -- and -- as has been discussed here a lot, any kind of spread betting will increase your volatility quite a bit. To be solidly financed for the day, you need to have 12 maximum bets in your pocket each time you go out to play.

You know Mr. Renzey I get what you are saying, that it is better for someone to play a positive expectation game than a negative expectation one under any circumstances, but I think you have to consider the human psychology that often wins the day when people sit down at the gaming table.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone here, but we are talking about blackjack players who lack the ability and/or the discipline to learn a level 1 count like High-Low or KO. With the Front Count you are sending them to the table with a 0.25% advantage assuming they do exactly what they are supposed to do and telling them they can beat the game.

Maybe they can. But you have to realize gaming quickly turns into gambling which is like heroin to many people. I'm painfully aware of just how much trouble a player can get into with a 1.25% advantage, never mind 0.25%. I'd be afraid to send somebody into a casino with a weak count, especially knowing that this was a person who tried KO or High-Low and couldn't handle it. Not necessarily that they are dumb, but maybe they have a character flaw of some kind (as we all do), or they don't perform well in the casino environment, or that they don't understand that advantage play is not easy and they think they can now treat a blackjack table like an ATM. Or maybe they don't understand game selection (e.g., playing 6:5) or bet sizing. Any of these situations will cause them to be a losing player no matter what system they use. The possibility is there that we would be setting someone up for a destructive gambling habit. Most CG's consider themselves "recreational players" and at least at one point thought they could beat the game too.

I think the moderate difficulty of learning the usual introductory counts helps to weed out the people who are going to be a menace to themselves with a pocketful of cash at a blackjack table. Just my opinion, but I'd prefer to see people leave their money home until they are playing a strong game and ready to handle all the contingencies out there.