High-low method with indexes is the best for BJ....right?

D

daytripper

New Member
with all those counting systems out there, is the high-low method with the indexes as ed thorp explains it in "beat the dealer" the best one? it'd be a waste of time if I perfected that method and then had to relearn.

thanks in advance
daytripper
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
It depends on you

As a general rule the simpler a system is the less powerful it is, and High-Low is a very simple system. It's a level 1 system which means all card weights are 1, 0, or -1. You'll find there are only about 20-30 advanced plays worth learning with High-Low.

But playing a less powerful system perfectly is more profitable than playing a more powerful one with mistakes. Put yourself in this situation: you're tired, hungry, a few drinks, distracted, horny, pissed off at your fellow players, and frustrated because you've been losing. Now think about the most complicated system you could play perfectly under these circumstances, because I can guarantee you that you will be every one of these things at some time when you are playing. That's the system for you.
 
G

gorilla player

Well-Known Member
one of "those" questions...

This is one of those questions.

Comparable to which is the best car to buy, etc.

Hi-Lo works. If you do it right, you can make money with it. There are two parts to counting/winning. Part 1 is betting big when you have the advantage and betting small when you don't. Hi-Lo is very good at this. Part 2 is playing based on the count. Since the Hi-Lo system counts aces and 10s together, you can make some playing mistakes. IE when you double on a 11, you want a 10, not an ace. So hi-lo has a lower playing efficiency than some other counts (2-level in particular). But it isn't _that_ much lower, just lower.

So, you can go with a 2-level count (or higher) and improve the playing accuracy a bit (not much help in betting however as hi-lo is very good there). The question is, will you play enough to be able to stay on top of all the n-level indices for correct play to take advantage of the better playing efficiency? Will you be able to keep up with the count at all if you don't play regularly?

As another responder said, the best system is the one you can play well...
 
A

Anon

Active Member
yes, no and maybe

...is the high-low method with the indexes as ed thorp explains it in "beat the dealer" the best one?​

In the '66 edition of BTD there was no estimated true count. There was an exact index numerated by the running count and denominated by number of unseen cards. This was important in 1966. Most games were singledecked with discards collected to the bottom of the pack. Sometimes the portion of the pack remaining undealt was obvious, sometimes not. But with shuffling of the discards to complete a hand a frequent event, knowing the exact number of cards undealt was advantageous.

Was having absolutely precise indexes available for departure decisions a tremendous benefit? No, not really, because the decision tables in the book are substantially error-ridden. Specifically, the middle cards, 7 8 & 9, were over-represented in the undealt subset. Comparison of the table numbers for 12 v 2 and 16 v 7 with those of Braun or Wong will reveal this clearly.

So the strict answer to the question, ...with the indexes as ed thorp explains it..., is yes, but not with his (Thorp's) indices.

Every detail of the other two responses is correct and, as a practical matter (as opposed to an historical one), much more useful.
 
F

FLASH

New Member
Not even close.

Hi-Lo is only a very rudimentary system. It has a very low playing efficiency and only a moderate betting correlation. Be aware that playing a more advanced system with errors will LOSE you some of your advantage. If you MUST use Hi-Lo or you choose to because you are only a recreational player who plays a few hrs. a week for modest stakes, at least do yourself a favor and use Hi-Lo as it is elucidated in "Professional Blackjack" by Stanford Wong. A very inexpensive book. IF you are a serious student of BJ then it behooves you to learn a more powerful system. If you are playing mostly 6 or 8 deck shoes then I suggest the ZEN COUNT as presented in Arnold Snyder's "Blackbelt in Blackjack" If you play mostly 2 deckers I suggest that you study the Advanced Omega II from "Blackjack for Blood" by Bryce Carlson.

Good Luck and Aces and faces to ya'
 
G

gorilla player

Well-Known Member
Hi-Lo BC

I could easily be wrong, but I thought Hi-Lo BC was like 98%? PE is something like 51% which is not great, but with a max of 70% it doesn't look so terribly bad. I've never tried to figure out how much of a loss that PE turns into in actual play however.

Did I miss something on Hi-Lo BC???
 
T

toddler

Well-Known Member
Lost in translation

I've been under the impression "mon ami" roughly translates to "dear friend". Perhaps this is a gender related mistake. Please advise.

Regardless, it looks as though this is not the person in question. Although, the writing style and historical knowledge bear similarities. Wishful thinking on my part.

toddler
 
K

KennilworthKid

Active Member
Hi Lo is okay-can convert to Halves

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to weigh in on this...these forum are one place place I can talk (who knows someone may pay attention!)

I play for entertainment & I use Hi-Lo. I have experimented with halves and AOII...I found I had difficulty in the casino with these despite hours of successful play on my kitchen table. I had to swallow my pride and go back to Hi-Lo, but winning some $$$ soothed my bruised ego.

Buy Blackjack Attack, you can get some comparisons of the performance of the various systems.

Hi-Lo can be souped up, by encorporating side counts (aces sevens-nines), to increase its insurance & playing efficientcy. Its betting efficientcy is very good without the extras. Thus, if you wish to complicate your system, you can approach the performance (and complexity) of the other systems.

Also, Hi-Lo is a close cousin to halves, and the stategy tables to Hi-Lo can be used without much decrease in performance if you are using the halve count system. You might try that in single & double deck games.

As I play mostly in Vegas and for small stakes, I usually play multi-deck games, and Hi-Lo is well suited to those games. When I play singles, I add the strategy variations as per Stanfor Wong's Professional Blackjack to get a little more edge, and try to factor in the ace counts sometimes.
 
E

eyesfor21

Well-Known Member
sf good luck tough game

no, and there is heat so don't get too excited..
got tossed last week for doing a somewhat small spread
got blackjack..then the guys in suits came down from
viewing to say bye bye..the pit was taken by surprise..a little
different..but all the same
the basic for sf21 is different too.
ex.db 10 vs 10 is basic stratelgy so is
splitting 9's with A
Hitting 4 card 17 is basic too.
 
G

Gorgon

Member
Chameleons at the Gate

That's the bad news about hitting a 4 card 17; it's pretty glaring. So instead of this game offering the good player less heat, we have just the opposite effect because of the unusual basic strategy.
My experience has been that the eye is also concerned with the accuracy of your surrender play. They realize that the average ploppy is not going to know about these "advanced" plays, so it's easy to categorize any player almost instantly.
Therefore, cover plays should command a higher priority for this game as opposed to bet-spreading.
Furthermore, I have to assume that Hi-Lo wouldn't not be the best choice for this game for the reason previously stated; i.e., bet-spreading against multi-decks being Hi-Lo's forte. Something like Uston SS or even AOII is likely to perform closer to optimal in regard to both EV and longevity. But you still need the minimum of 12 hands dealt per shuffle unless you don't mind wasting your time.
 
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